Open AI, AI Benefits, & Data Driven Marketing
We're breaking down OpenAI's billion dollar eval, the benefits and cons of AI tools, and Ali Jawan's framework for data-driven marketing strategies.
But the big question for me is, are we investing in the right data
and the AI tools to stay competitive tomorrow?
Is it a Fisher for the customer?
Absolutely not.
If money is limited investment, time, we cannot
to buy the laws of physics.
Real talk backed up with real action.
This is GTM News Desk.
I'm Nick Bennett and I'm Mark Killens.
Let's see what's trending.
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Welcome to GTM News Desk.
Excited about this.
We've got a headline, sir.
We've got a pack day for you.
Got a couple headline stories.
And we've got a fantastic guest for you today.
But let's kick things off.
So for those that are out there that have been following
this whole OpenAI journey, ChatGPT, I am a ChatGPT user.
Although I don't use it as much anymore.
I try to use Claude actually more.
It's becoming more interesting.
To me, however, OpenAI just came out
with some latest fundraising that
could push their valuation to $150 billion.
So just earlier this year, they were at about $86 billion.
And they're in talks to raise $6.5 billion from investors
like Microsoft, Thrive Capital.
So Ty's in actually really well to our conversation
with Ali, who will be our guest on the later piece of this show,
because we talked a little bit about AI.
But what's driving this?
Simply put, AI is becoming essential to every industry.
And investors see OpenAI as a leader.
Now, again, there's still a human component of this.
But here's where it gets interesting,
from a data and marketing perspective.
So despite strong revenues over, you know,
they had 3.4 billion in revenue in just 2024.
They're still expected to lose around $5 billion
by year's end.
So, which is even crazy to me.
Like, I can't even comprehend that.
But a lot of zeros, Nick, it's a lot of zeros.
It's a lot of zeros.
I don't know who, like, I mean, I get it.
I'm sure at one point it will outweigh the other.
But it's pretty clear to me, they're pouring resources,
resources into AI research development.
They're putting big bets on the futures.
For marketers, you know, this is kind of a key takeaway.
Innovation doesn't come cheap, but the payoff can be massive.
And as we get into our conversation later
in the episode with Ali,
we talk about, you know, the rise of AI tools, you know,
how do you analyze data?
How do you personalize customer experiences?
How do you automate those processes?
And if open AI success teaches us anything,
it's that businesses need to start looking at how AI
can drive smarter marketing strategies.
From predictive analytics to personalized customer journeys,
I think we're still probably maybe a year or two away from this.
But it's going to be the future
and how it's integrated into a lot more personal aspect.
But the big question for me is,
are we investing in the right data in the AI tools
to stay competitive tomorrow?
So there are 150 billion dollar evaluations
that wake up calls that, you know, obviously companies need
to start investing in AI leveraging it
for operational efficiency,
but also for smarter data driven marketing
that helps connect audiences.
So it'll be interesting to see,
I think in a couple of years, AI is going to be insane,
probably partly dangerous.
But yeah, it's interesting, Mark, I'm curious on your thoughts.
- Well, at first I'm disappointed you didn't introduce me
and say hello at the beginning.
So there's that.
I'm going to hold you to that for a long time.
Keep them in the back of your mind.
But I think what you just said
is a lot of jargon quite frankly.
I don't know, like, I mean, yes,
people are using chat, GBT, Claude,
I use it like you do.
And I would argue AI is already dangerous.
It's already a lot of bad shape going on with it.
A lot of bad shit.
I just think it's so overhyped right now.
And yes, they're losing a ton of money
because of the compute power and the hardware that's needed
plus the cost of an AI engineer.
If you want to make a lot of money,
become an AI engineer.
They're getting paid anywhere from a half a million
to upwards of 1.5 million a year in sellers.
The plus stock, plus all this other stuff, right?
They're going to be super rich.
So I say all that because we're still
from a marketing standpoint,
just in a shitty spot when it comes to AI.
It's a lot of just your throwing crap on a wall
and seeing if any of it's sticking
and really almost none of it's sticking.
We're going to talk about this in the next segment.
In a moment, the promises that companies are making
about AI are so fundamentally flawed.
It's now becoming a joke.
And like LinkedIn is picking up on a Nick
and people are seeing right through all the bullshit
and they're saying to themselves, wait a minute.
Like AI is nothing special.
AI, it doesn't even matter about AI.
All we want is the results, a better outcome
to get this job done.
If AI could do it fine, if AI can't do it,
I don't care about it.
But I get the end of the day.
People don't give two crafts about AI.
I know why people, most people,
I know it's a speaking absolutes, but most people, Nick,
don't care what engine is in their car.
'Cause they don't care.
All they care about is if the car gets them
from point A to point B on a reliable basis.
And that's the exact same thing with AI.
- That's true.
And I think it's gonna go to show.
It's like, I mean, I don't care which AI I use
as long as it gets me where I want,
which goes back to like, yo, can you prompt it the right way?
Can you use it the right way?
Like, I don't care what I'm using.
It's just like, get me to where I want to go.
- Exactly.
It's a segment too.
Good friends, Scott Brinker, worked a lot with him
at HubSpots.
He is amazing when it comes to his content
and research chief martec.com will have in the show notes.
Everyone, he recently published an article about AI.
I mean, he's talking a lot about AI.
He talks a lot about like, martec and the whole text scene.
But he's created this article about how is AI
good for actual B2B consumers?
Like, is it good?
And is it helping the B2B marketer,
the B2B salesperson serve their buyers
and customers better?
And he did a pretty big study about this,
a lot of great data.
And he built a couple of frameworks.
He always does.
He and I love mental models, as you know, Nick.
And one of them is around, hey, it's a two A2.
Hey, what is good for the company versus good for the customer
when it comes to AI?
Again, like, look at the show notes to see this.
But if it's efficient for the customer,
or efficient for the company, then yes,
it's delightful, you should do it.
But what we're seeing is an example as the SDR automation
that's happening right now, BDR automation.
Is it efficient for the company?
Yeah, probably.
Is it efficient for the customer?
Absolutely not.
It is garbage.
I got one just yesterday that I put in tack insider,
you know, community.
It was from a pretty reputable,
I think, series B or C company.
I click on the link in the email
and it's completely nothing to do
with what they promised me in the email.
Like the thing that they said, go look at,
go check out, did not exist Nick.
It's like, all right, fail number one,
bad brand experience, right?
And if you have bad interactions with a brand,
you might be able to get away with one, maybe two.
Once you have two or three or four bad experiences,
no matter if it's an email or something else, Nick,
your perception of that brand is way down in the shitter.
Like, I guess my favorite swear word today is S,
but it isn't a bad, bad spot.
You're losing links in the trust chain
that we've talked about in the past.
And that is what AI is doing to a lot of companies.
And Scott does a lot to debunk this in the research he published.
I think that's like the thing with, you know,
tack, for example, we have like the little like emoji.
And so it's so simple when like Pete,
you could tell it's just like, like another AI,
trying to use something because like,
it sometimes just removes tack and just puts the emoji.
And it's just like, oh, like, come on,
like you can see it on LinkedIn,
you can see it on email.
Like I get probably 10 to 15 emails a day that is just like,
you could just tell it's just kind of like a trying,
someone trying to use AI that doesn't really deliver
on that experience.
And it's just like it doesn't even pertain to me
or add any value to me.
So I mean, I'm excited for to read deeper into Scott's content.
Yeah, as we go into the next segment,
the flagship conversation with Ali, the idea of data.
The AI is only as good as your data.
And it's never 100% clean and needs to be, you know,
clean enough and reliable.
But AI is not just failing people because of the data,
but it's also failing because of the workflow
and how it's being used in the context of its workflow.
And we're just so early, I do have faith it will get better.
I think the best AI will be used from a marketing standpoint
and a sales standpoint to help make you or me
or the millions of marketers that sales people out there
better at what we do, meaning we're better at connecting
with another person or a group of people
at a human level in a more effective and efficient way.
Versus we're gonna replace us and only rely on technology
to do what the human was doing,
which is completely flawed in my opinion.
We'll see if I'm right, we'll see if I'm wrong.
We'll know in five or 10 years.
By the way, the next conversation that we're gonna have
with the SPP of marketing it out,
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I feel like I've talked to a lot of people about AI,
but the way that you just explained it was so good, because I do think a lot of
people have that happy theme.
I think about it. I mean, Trader and Trade Show season now.
I mean, Trader and Trade Show season now.
I guarantee you you're inbound dream force.
I guarantee you you're inbound dream force.
I guarantee you you're inbound dream force.
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But yeah, it's still a little unpredictable.
And yeah, I don't mind that it did.
And it was just like it leans so hard.
And how it's going to do this amazing things.
So it's AI. And then I'm like, you're just using best practices.
And you input when I want him to go to bed.
And when I want him to wake up.
Like, I'm really seriously here.
But I'm still a happy customer.
But the last point of this.
And I know Nick, you another question.
AI right now, I think, is failing to under promise and over deliver.
They're over promising under delivering.
And that is like a huge no-no in everything marketing.
And everything sales.
And I guess we just leave it at that.
Yeah. 100% cool.
Let's talk about the executive side of it.
So, you know, I'm sure you obviously being on the executive team.
You're in your board meetings.
You're dealing with the CEO.
From a sea level mindset, what's the most common misconception from executives
about data driven marketing decisions?
I would say that it's probably that because it's marketing,
that it's there for fluffy.
You know, I do think a lot of, you know, VCs and board members
do recognize that marketing has wildly changed in the past 20 years.
But I think there's definitely like,
they're still like niggling little like,
but do they really know?
Aren't they just like painting with their crayons and pretty pictures
in the corner?
Aren't they just like obsessing over wordsmithing?
Which like, don't get me wrong.
Like, if it doesn't look good and if it doesn't sound good,
that's a problem.
But I think they assume that we're not good at math.
Or that we might not have the business savvy.
And that there just tends to be a lot of skepticism.
And I'd say, you know, one thing is that, you know,
one, let's not make the problem worse by giving them fuzzy metrics.
I always try and be very cleared with the board where I can say,
hey, if it is digital, I can promise you, I can tie it through.
It's not easy, but the technology exists.
If you're going to add a lot of data,
if the technology exists,
if you're going to ask me about share of voice,
or you know, the LinkedIn metric share of feed,
I should know, share of feeds different,
it's digital, but like share of voice.
Is it an important metric?
Yes, absolutely.
But it's, I would call it, that's directional.
I'm not going to put the exact same weight on it,
because that one is a little bit more fluffy.
Not that it's not important.
So I'd say, you know, one, you know, be honest about where you can be
really, really clear on what you're reporting.
And then also, I made this mistake like once a year.
I really should learn better.
But once a year, one board meeting out of four,
I always report below revenue and pipeline.
I know better than now, not to do it.
But every once in a while, you know,
there have been a campaign that we've just launched,
and I'm really excited about.
So I want to talk about, you know, engagement rates,
or, you know, click-throughs, or, you know, personas.
And every single time I do that,
I get slapped down, and it's really painful,
because we're like, well, that's not revenue.
And you know what, they're right.
They are right. It makes me look like I'm, you know,
I don't have anything real, and I'm grasping at straws.
So, thankfully, I made that mistake six months ago.
So I've got, you know, another six months to hopefully
come to my senses.
I don't think I'll ever be perfect at it.
But, you know, one, we can, you know, not feed the animals
by making sure that we are only give them metrics
that tie to revenue.
Unless you have a board that actually really is interested
in brand and share of voice, then by all means, you know,
one, please appreciate how lucky you are,
and go there.
But, you know, for most boards, that are a lot of finance people
and VCs.
Show how it ties to revenue.
Don't go anything, you know, below pipeline.
You know, channels, I would say sometimes.
And if there's a major, major campaign, like, you know,
Dreamforce is next week, and that's a big thing for us.
I would report on a Dreamforce and unleash, which is our major conference.
I would report on that.
But unless it's something that the whole entire company is involved with for
months, like a major tier one campaign.
Don't go anywhere less than that.
I like that a lot.
I do feel that when it comes to like the reporting at the board level,
of the course changes based off of stage of company.
And what's the goals of the company?
I think what you're saying is that,
if you get two into the weeds, which is then removing the conversation
and the data from the revenue lands and the pipeline lands,
you can start to go down rabbit holes and people like the investor,
like, that's what I've experienced.
Is that also kind of part of what you're saying?
Yeah, I mean, it's actually funny.
That's not where I was thinking initially, but I'm so glad you brought it up.
Yes, because then you go into like, well, why that color?
Or like, you know, why that ebook, you get, you go down to content strategy,
you get into creative, like you just get into things you did not prepare for.
And I mean, it's what's so hard about board meetings anyway.
That, you know, I know this is a little bit of a tangent, but like,
you can prepare, you can be the most prepared.
You can know every single slide on your deck, like the back of your hand.
You can have memorized the appendix, you know, how every data point was
generated.
But, you know, for an example, my very first board meeting at outreach,
it was before unleash.
And the question that really stumped me was our speaker was a
forgetful time and was like, oh, like, is that, you know, the speaker you want?
And if you could have any speaker in the world, you know, who would you choose?
And I was so taken aback that thankfully, you know, the CRO, my good friend
Kevin Bogner was like,
does anyone know Taylor Swift?
And I was like, yes, Taylor Swift.
And like, we moved on.
There's always one question that's out of left field that like completely stump
ed me. So that's gonna happen anyway.
Don't give them any more cause to go into directions that just like you haven't
prepared for. It's a stressful situation as it is.
Yeah. And with boards and executives, even with your team, a framework that I
love using. And then we'll move to the last final question before we get to the real,
real deep stuff with the with Ali, but is a cell tell consult.
Do you use that at all?
Not in that way, but I love that I'm stealing that that's genius.
So we I learned that from, I think it was of previous guests we had.
It was either Trisha or Katie, the two CMOs that I had the honor of working
with at Drift.
Both X sales force and I guess sales force used that a lot.
Like, are you coming into this conversation or this meeting?
Are we selling? Am I selling you? Am I telling you something?
The decision's been made. I'm telling you this is it.
And then you let's go and you're going to agree or disagree and commit or my
consulting you under decision that we have to make.
That's kind of in flight. So yeah, it was it was pretty helpful when we start
to kind of like level set some important conversations with that.
Love it.
Last question before we get to the real, real stuff that's for tech network
subscribers.
How do you blend in your mind? This idea of people first marketing people first
go to market,
which is like the storytelling, the brand building creating fans, community
activation, messaging positioning.
I think it's that plus more with the data driven science side of marketing.
And how do you like to think about it? I guess I'm going to change a question a
little bit.
How do you think about it from an investment standpoint?
It's a really great question. And I'd say, you know, one, I just added a high
level.
And I think it helps that people first every single time performs better.
Jargon doesn't work buzzwords don't work.
The amount of times I go to a website where I see, you know, above the fold.
I'm like, there is no semantic value here. I don't even know is pretty wild.
So one, it just works better.
But what I found was whenever content people had a number, it really hamstrung
them in terms of the creativity in terms of the content.
So what I've actually done it outreach, which I've never done before and, you
know, it really works because of the personalities.
I don't know how, how easy to be to replicate it, but it's been fantastic is
that I have content sitting in three different teams with three very different
goals.
So I have content that sits under brand and creative.
And they are just there for, you know, the true sense of awareness, getting
people interested.
So we share a lot of proprietary data. We do a lot of videos. It's really like
fun top of the funnel awareness.
And for them, I mean, they still have some metrics, but it's really just like
awareness, the eyeballs, the very, very tippy top of the funnel.
And I just, you know, really level set with, you know, the CEO and the board
that this is the stuff that is the hardest to measure.
But thankfully, I have such a great team there. I'm like, you can't tell me
that this isn't good. And also the amount of PR that we get from it validates
it.
So I just, you know, really set expectations there that they are really freed
from the hard metrics.
But again, we're going to measure them, but, you know, we just, I don't want
that in their head.
I want them to be free. I want them to be creative. I want them to grab the
attention.
Then I have the content that sits under product marketing and they are tied to
pipeline, but we look at as influenced pipeline.
Did people, you know, interact with it. We're not going to look at first touch.
We're not going to look at last touch.
And we're going to see like if they interacted with it because they, you know,
it's a huge investment.
And if people don't like how we're talking about the product, then, you know,
that's not going to be good for anyone.
And then I have my growth content team and they are solely tied to dollars. If
anything, I almost tell them to like ignore everything then they hear from me
like,
don't listen, don't listen and just to follow the data. Look at the keywords
and they are solely measured on conversions, pipeline and revenue.
I want them almost like in their own little black box, not to be influenced by
like the noise around because it's just about revenue for them.
Again, it's only works well because I have great leaders. I have great people
underneath doing this. But yeah, it's the best I've ever seen because everyone
is one writing and creating to their strength.
But also it's very clear what the expectations are.
Love that you align the metrics to what the team is producing and then you, you
share that with the stakeholders that hold you accountable. That's fantastic.
That's great.
So for everyone that's listening, we're going to jump over to the exclusive
side right now. Hopefully we'll see you at Tech Network, Tech Network.com.
And you will be able to find the exclusive segment of this next part with Ali
right there.
Thanks for joining us on this episode of GTM News Desk, presented by the Tech
Network.
To hear our full conversation with our guests today, head to the link in the
show notes to subscribe to the Tech Network. Until next time, I'm Mark Killens.
And I'm Nick Bennett. Keep it people fairest everybody.