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Nick Bennett 45 min

How to Build a PLG Motion that Your Sales Team Will Love


Join Andrew Capland in a groundbreaking session to uncover the true essence of Product-Led Growth (PLG) and learn how to design a hybrid go-to-market strategy that perfectly balances self-service with sales-assisted dynamics.



0:00

What's up everyone?

0:04

Welcome to a club PF webinar.

0:06

This one's for the month of February, 2024.

0:09

I am with a longtime friend, former colleague

0:14

at HubSpot, Andrew Kaplan.

0:15

Andrew, what's going on my friend?

0:17

Part of the early team, dude.

0:19

Early team, very early team.

0:21

So product of growth, it's one of these things that,

0:25

so actually let me ask you this question really quick.

0:28

Do you know, 'cause I don't know the answer,

0:30

but do you know the answer of like,

0:31

when did product-led growth officially get coined?

0:35

- I hate this question.

0:38

I kinda hate the term product-led growth,

0:40

because I feel like it's like this name

0:42

that put a label on things that people were doing for a while.

0:46

I think it was probably 2015, 2016-ish.

0:48

I think it was OpenView if I was to guess,

0:51

but freemium had been around for a while.

0:54

Like MailChimp was freemium, I was at Wister for a while,

0:56

they were freemium.

0:57

I think it took OpenView to put the guardrails around it.

1:01

- Yeah, I mean HubSpot made the very conscientious,

1:05

deliberate decision, what was like 2014-15 to say,

1:08

like we need to disrupt how we basically sell.

1:11

And they said, hey, I think they actually used box

1:17

as an example, or Dropbox, it was a Dropbox, right Andrew?

1:20

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:21

- Yeah.

1:22

So today we're gonna be talking about

1:25

how to maybe disrupt yourself,

1:26

or maybe how to disrupt yourself,

1:27

if you're doing PLG today, because it's changed.

1:30

There's a lot of changes in the last 10, 15 years

1:32

around this concept.

1:33

So you got so much good content.

1:37

I'll have you do an intro in a moment.

1:39

We can dive into some of the stuff.

1:40

We can kind of zig and zag depending on

1:42

where we wanna go and what people think.

1:44

But it's this idea of taking product-led growth,

1:47

which is all about in this most purest form,

1:50

touchless sales.

1:53

Like you don't need to talk to a human,

1:55

you try the product out, you sign up,

1:57

you swipe your credit card, you're good, done, sweet.

2:00

Balancing that with, no, I need to qualify you,

2:05

do discovery on you, (laughs)

2:07

gate the demo, gate all these things, right Andrew?

2:10

- Yeah, I mean, that's the dream, right?

2:13

The dream is to touch the sale.

2:15

And the reality is the other stuff that typically happens,

2:18

and then there's this sort of tension

2:20

on trying to balance the two,

2:21

and it's okay at it a little bit, you know?

2:24

- Let's do it.

2:24

- So why don't you do a quick set of the table,

2:26

what we're gonna cover today?

2:28

We'll zig and zag though, depending on what people wanna do,

2:30

and then do a quick intro, and then we can just get into it.

2:32

- Yeah, sounds good, we can keep it fluid.

2:34

So we'll talk about what good PLG looks like,

2:37

and specifically the intersection of sales-led

2:40

and self-service motions.

2:42

I kind of call this the hybrid model.

2:43

I think there's been a lot of confusion around like,

2:46

what PLG is, like what it isn't,

2:48

and how it works with sales teams.

2:51

So we'll poke at all that stuff,

2:52

talk about a few key principles,

2:54

a bunch of examples,

2:55

I'll share a few stories from my past,

2:57

a bunch of screenshots as we go here.

3:00

- Let's go do it.

3:02

I love it.

3:03

You have kind of good examples in this deck,

3:04

which is amazing.

3:05

People listening, you're gonna wanna just stick on

3:07

for all the great examples,

3:08

and you're almost like stories from Andrew's

3:12

rich history in PLG.

3:14

- I just feel like there's no point in having just

3:17

information in an academic vacuum.

3:19

I try to show real-life examples

3:20

so people can get a feel for what it looks like in the wild.

3:23

- I love it.

3:24

- So we'll structure today around kind of three core principles.

3:26

The first one will be quick,

3:27

which is why is it important to do this hybrid motion?

3:30

How does it help us scale further than without it?

3:33

We'll talk about segmentation,

3:34

which is really a key in my experience

3:37

to scaling this hybrid motion

3:38

and balancing the two funnels.

3:40

And then obviously the nuts and bolts

3:41

of how sales led works in conjunction

3:44

in a self-serve environment.

3:45

Cool.

3:48

And so I'm Andrew, Mark already shared.

3:49

I was early at HubSpot.

3:52

He and I think joined around the same time.

3:53

I was employee number 200 or so.

3:55

We had a lot of fun there

3:56

and saw what high growth looked like on the inside.

3:59

And then since then,

4:00

I've gone off and learned a little bit more

4:02

about what has become called product leg growth.

4:04

I joined Wysia, which is a video marketing software company.

4:08

I started and scaled a cross-functional growth team there.

4:11

That company acquired hundreds of thousands of free users

4:15

and tens of thousands of paid customers with no sales team.

4:18

So it's like a really interesting e-commerce environment.

4:21

And then I went to another company called PostScript.

4:24

So their tentire also had a growth,

4:26

which has gone on to become one of the largest apps

4:28

in the Shopify ecosystem, another product led business.

4:31

Now I'm on my own.

4:32

I run my own business called delivering value

4:34

where I coach people to have my former job,

4:36

leading growth teams.

4:37

And I advise product led SaaS companies

4:39

to help them grow faster.

4:41

Outside of the SaaS cloud world, I'm a dad.

4:44

I got a three year old.

4:45

I got another one on the way in June.

4:47

I'm a husband and I'm really into woodworking.

4:49

Like I know it's a funny juxtaposition,

4:51

but when I'm not in the cloud,

4:52

I really like working with my hands.

4:54

So that's all about. - Love that.

4:55

- That's so good.

4:57

We could do a whole session just woodworking.

4:59

I love that.

5:01

- I just moved in early January.

5:03

And so it's nice 'cause it like reset all the projects

5:06

that I have around the house.

5:07

I was kind of running out of projects at my old spot.

5:10

- Yeah, it'd be cool.

5:12

I'm not a huge woodworker.

5:13

I mean, I'm dangerous, but I got friends,

5:14

like two friends that are just crazy about it.

5:16

And yeah, just like the way you have your shop set up

5:19

and the techniques you use and the types of,

5:22

would you like to work with?

5:23

It's very interesting.

5:24

- Yeah, it's like it's a whole community,

5:26

a whole subculture. - For sure.

5:28

- So do you want to bounce around

5:30

or should we just rock it here?

5:32

- Let's start with the Y.

5:33

I always, you know me, like,

5:35

why, how, what, to some degree?

5:36

Like let's focus on the Y and set the table.

5:38

Cool, all right, let's do that.

5:40

So let's just move my little zoom window here.

5:44

All right. - No problem.

5:46

- And so you kind of talked about it.

5:47

Like this is the dream state at P.O.G.

5:50

Somebody visits your website,

5:51

they sign up for whatever the thing is

5:53

that they can sign up for,

5:55

hopefully they use it in a meaningful way

5:56

and get some value.

5:57

And then they bolt their credit card and swipe it.

6:00

And ideally it doesn't stop there.

6:01

Ideally they continue to either upgrade

6:03

in between plans or expand their usage over time.

6:06

This is the dream.

6:08

It's never the simple, right?

6:09

Like it's easy to put it on the slide.

6:11

And what I have learned makes this less simple

6:15

is maybe the story that I learned during my time at Wistia,

6:19

I guess is what helped me to understand the need

6:21

for this hybrid motion outside of these five titles here.

6:25

Let me explain a little bit more.

6:26

So when I was at Wistia, I shared it.

6:28

Video marketing software company

6:30

is there for about four and a half years

6:32

early to the freemium motion.

6:34

They had a freemium, I think back in 2012.

6:36

And so by the time I joined the company in 2015,

6:39

they already had hundreds of thousands of free accounts.

6:42

They had tens of thousands of paying customers

6:43

and literally zero people working in sales,

6:45

100% touchless e-commerce, high volume,

6:48

relatively low average revenue per customer environment.

6:51

And it was dope.

6:52

As a marketer coming from a traditional

6:54

inside sales driven environment,

6:56

I was like, wow, this is an incredible model.

6:58

And something really interesting happened.

7:00

I thought that this was the future of SaaS.

7:02

Was that SaaS was gonna become e-commerce

7:03

and this was the validation for me.

7:05

But something interesting started happening

7:07

at some point along the line.

7:08

And what happened is that people were raising their hands

7:12

asking for help.

7:13

And they would write it to customer service

7:15

'cause that was the only place they could write in.

7:17

But they weren't asking about their account

7:19

or about their plan or troubleshooting stuff.

7:21

They were asking basic questions.

7:22

Some of them on the free product

7:24

about how does this part of the tool work?

7:26

And do you think it would work for this use case?

7:28

And other folks were asking more complicated stuff

7:31

about integrations and customizations.

7:33

And some even said, I'd like to build your product.

7:37

I'd like to white label your product

7:38

and build it into my platform.

7:40

Could we talk?

7:41

And other folks would explicitly ask to speak with sales.

7:44

So it's kind of fascinating.

7:45

Like we tried not to have a sales team.

7:47

At some point we just had members

7:49

of the customer success team

7:50

that were doing sales like questions

7:52

and we realized that's stupid.

7:54

So we decided that sales would be helpful.

7:57

And then the question became, how do you do both?

8:00

Like if we're a self service premium business

8:02

but we have a sales team, are we no longer self serve?

8:05

And we knew we didn't probably want

8:07

or have the volume of sales reps

8:08

to send every new account to our inside sales team

8:11

but we weren't sure how to identify who.

8:14

Those were the things that led me down this journey.

8:16

And what I've learned is that most mature modern day

8:19

PLG companies or most modern day SaaS businesses

8:22

usually run some flavor of this, right?

8:24

There's a self service motion, there's a sales motion

8:27

and then there's some overlap kind of in between.

8:29

So that's what we're gonna talk about today.

8:31

That's what we're gonna explore a little bit deeper.

8:33

And that's how I learned that it's not one or the other

8:35

that you kind of need both of these to grow.

8:37

And the real challenge is how do you grow total revenue

8:41

without just shifting money from your self service

8:43

to your sales pocket or vice versa?

8:45

How do you grow total revenue without just converting folks

8:47

who would have already bought on their own

8:49

or underserving people that need a custom one to one motion?

8:53

So that's kind of the nature of the beast here.

8:56

- Now I love this.

8:57

And to me, we talk as you know, a lot about like this idea

9:00

of people first go to market, how do you make a go-to-market

9:05

strategy, but then subsequently the experience

9:10

matched to how people buy today.

9:12

And we talked a lot about that kind of concept

9:13

at HubSpot, but it's even changed since then.

9:16

We talked about inbound.

9:17

Inbound is one component of people first go to market.

9:22

You could think of it as I almost call it

9:23

like content-led growth now.

9:25

What we failed to recognize at HubSpot

9:28

because the technology probably wasn't fully

9:30

that there was, baiting everything with a form

9:32

wasn't very people first,

9:34

because it became very annoying over time.

9:37

And now the transition from forms to signals is interesting.

9:41

And I think the PLG is one of the early places

9:44

from a SaaS standpoint or a business model standpoint

9:46

that gives you great signals, right?

9:49

Outside of your traditional sales team signals

9:51

that the sales person would collect.

9:54

But now it's the person using the free product,

9:57

using the free tool, whatever they're doing

9:59

through their kind of, you know, you get them to sign up,

10:02

through their activation to hopefully, you know,

10:04

longer-term retention, those signals can probably

10:06

be a great source of buying intent for your sales team.

10:11

Is this kind of some of the stuff you're gonna talk about now?

10:16

Andrew, you're a little bit--

10:16

- Yeah, it's huge.

10:17

So you can use the product for intent.

10:20

And if you wanted, there's even some really advanced stuff

10:23

that isn't gonna be in here, but we can talk about

10:25

at the end, which is you can even ungate part

10:27

of your product, do something like a self-service,

10:29

interactive demo and use that intent data to segment

10:33

or retarget to do all kinds of stuff, right?

10:35

So that's the name of the game here.

10:37

- Yeah, we talk about that in Club PF.

10:39

Yeah, it comes up almost every week or two.

10:41

I run this idea of interactive demos

10:43

that are not fully gated.

10:45

Like let's try to get to that for sure.

10:47

I know you have the next couple slides here.

10:49

You have now a new visual.

10:51

This one size doesn't fit all approach,

10:53

but then like instead of that, just a linear track,

10:55

it splits out a little bit.

10:56

- Yeah. - Do you wanna just

10:57

kind of unpack that a bit?

10:58

- Yeah, do you wanna just jump there?

10:59

- Yeah, so do that, yeah.

11:00

- 'Cause if not, I'm gonna get into segmentation

11:02

and the role that segmentation plays in this future world,

11:05

but we can loop back to it.

11:06

- Yeah, let's loop back.

11:08

- So let's do this.

11:10

So let's talk about like the nuts and bolts.

11:18

The bolts, excuse me, of how it works.

11:20

All right, still seeing the slides?

11:23

- Yeah, we see it now, yeah.

11:24

- Okay, so let's talk about how we tie it together.

11:26

What does the actual hybrid funnel look like?

11:28

So I'm gonna use colors for the next couple slides here.

11:31

Yellow is gonna be your sales-led motion.

11:33

Blue is gonna be your self-service motion,

11:35

and we're gonna talk about how to integrate.

11:37

- And hold on one second, as you go about talking with us,

11:39

Derek has a question that's, I think, relevant

11:41

to everything you're gonna say now.

11:42

He asks, does this model, the overlapping circles,

11:44

the hybrid approach, also apply when the company

11:47

has a PLG product that's 10K, say,

11:49

and enterprise B2B product of 100K.

11:51

- Yeah.

11:54

- Yes, although, is that the same product in this example,

11:58

Derek, like is it the same product in a different tier,

12:01

like different packaging and pricing,

12:02

or is it like product A,

12:04

and then a totally different product?

12:05

- Different product, yeah.

12:06

- Yeah, so I think you can have,

12:08

let me just think about that for a second.

12:10

I think if you have totally different products,

12:13

I think you could have ways that one becomes a feeder

12:16

for the other using like intent data,

12:18

and kind of like typical product-led segmentation

12:22

and activation engagement principles,

12:25

I think could help you to grow either revenue

12:27

within existing plans or increase the likelihood

12:30

that someone upgrades from plan one to plan two.

12:32

But I think for folks that are coming in,

12:34

your enterprise B2B product for 100K,

12:36

probably that's your sales-led first model,

12:38

with maybe some components of product-led

12:41

as a nurturing activity.

12:42

That's like what I've seen.

12:44

Go ahead, Marty.

12:45

- Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

12:45

- I was just gonna say, that's what I've seen most common,

12:47

for big enterprise level businesses that want to do PLG,

12:52

what I have learned is that when you launch like a free trial

12:55

or a free motion or whatever it is,

12:56

it ends up being that someone's in the sales process,

12:59

like kind of disengages in the sales process,

13:02

engages in the self-service thing,

13:03

and then comes back to the sales-led process.

13:06

So I've seen it to be a nurturing activity more so

13:08

than a revenue-generating standalone activity

13:10

at that price point.

13:12

- I definitely have seen that too.

13:13

He says it's different, but complementary products.

13:15

I actually think this is where interactive demos

13:17

can make a big difference too.

13:18

So we'll get to that as well, but like I think that's like

13:21

the marriage, you know?

13:23

- Yeah, for sure.

13:24

All right, so we got yellow, which is sales-led,

13:26

blue, which is self-serve,

13:27

and we're gonna talk about how these play together.

13:30

So this, I'm gonna oversimplify,

13:32

because it's easy to complicate,

13:33

and it's harder to simplify.

13:35

So if we think about the traditional sales-led experience,

13:37

it's some flavor of this.

13:39

Somebody's on your site, they sign up for some type

13:41

of sales-led offer, a demo, a price quote,

13:44

maybe they click the get-and-touch button,

13:46

something like that.

13:47

There's some qualification on the marketing,

13:48

and then on the sales side,

13:50

maybe there's an opportunity stage in there,

13:51

but at some point, if there's a product-led offer,

13:54

there's gonna be some kind of one-to-one activation experience,

13:57

hopefully a one-to-one purchase experience,

13:59

and likely a one-to-one upgrade experience.

14:02

This is the HubSpot that I worked at back in 2014,

14:06

whenever I'm working, 2011 to 2014, right?

14:08

This is kind of the environment that we came from.

14:11

But when we think about freemium,

14:12

when I went to Wishtia, it looks basically like this,

14:14

100% self-service.

14:16

People would visit the website.

14:17

This is that e-commerce engine I talked about

14:19

with a little bit more detail.

14:21

Some of the visits of the website,

14:22

they sign up for the thing,

14:24

whether it's a free plan or a free trial,

14:26

reverse free trial, whatever it is.

14:28

There's some activation journey that happens,

14:30

helping folks receive value, getting to that aha moment.

14:34

They can choose to either keep using the product for free,

14:37

forever, they could purchase a paid plan on their own,

14:39

and swipe their credit card, maybe they do that in upgrade,

14:42

they could use the free plan for a while

14:43

and upgrade two years down the road,

14:44

that's kind of the magic of freemium.

14:47

So we have this self-service funnel, our sales funnel,

14:50

and then if we combine the two,

14:52

it's gonna look like this,

14:53

which is if you want, you can still stay

14:58

in one of our colors silo, right?

14:59

You could sign up in the yellow,

15:01

just like what we talked about.

15:02

You could always fill out a price quote

15:03

or get in touch request and go through your sales-led motion.

15:06

You could be allergic to sales

15:08

and come into the self-service motion

15:10

and convert that way, no worries there.

15:12

But there's these three really interesting moments

15:14

where we can integrate the two experiences

15:16

that we're gonna explore.

15:17

I'm gonna highlight them quickly,

15:19

and then we're gonna go deeper in each

15:20

and I'm gonna share examples,

15:21

and if folks have questions, we can go slow.

15:24

So the three moments are these.

15:26

The first is based on the offer type.

15:28

This one's the most straightforward,

15:29

and we'll talk about it in a second.

15:31

The second is based on something

15:33

that you share during the signup process,

15:36

and there's, I'll share some examples in a second,

15:38

and then the third is based on some of the stuff

15:40

you were talking about Mark,

15:41

which is your behavior inside of the tool

15:44

or maybe outside of the tool, some intense data.

15:47

And so there's these three moments

15:48

where you go from the self-serve funnel

15:50

up to the sales funnel, potentially in vice versa.

15:53

I'm just gonna pause if there's any questions

15:56

or if anything there seems funky.

15:57

If not, we can go forward, and let's talk about examples.

16:00

- So far so good.

16:02

So my question you can answer now or just later would be

16:07

how do you then take this idea?

16:10

I mean, you can see you implement it

16:12

because it doesn't seem too complicated.

16:14

I mean, it's complicated once you get into the weeds,

16:16

but how do you make sure sales understands the motions

16:21

and like how they play into this?

16:22

Like how do you enable educate sales

16:25

on what to do and how to go about it?

16:27

- Exactly, like what do you see

16:29

that has worked basically in that regard?

16:31

- And so just for context,

16:34

are we talking about teaching sales reps

16:37

who are coming from traditional sales led environments

16:39

or are we thinking a new sales rep joining

16:41

this type of modern hybrid approach?

16:44

They're just new to the company,

16:45

the motion's already ramped up.

16:47

- I would say someone who's more traditional

16:50

and has typically only ever followed up

16:54

with the demo requests, the hand raise,

16:56

explicit hand raise done outbound, right?

16:58

Someone, you know, they didn't know a lot about outbound.

17:00

How do you make sure that sales understands

17:02

how to help these leads?

17:05

'Cause to me, this is a very consultative model.

17:08

To your point with Wistia, people are saying,

17:09

I need help, they don't want to be sold,

17:12

they want help using the product maybe

17:15

or something like to that regard.

17:16

- Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a great question.

17:18

So I think part of it, although we skipped over

17:21

the segmentation, a lot of it comes down to segmentation

17:23

and understanding folks a little bit more about them.

17:25

So if we go back here and we think about

17:27

if there was no sales team,

17:29

there would be a bunch of segmentation happening

17:31

when somebody signs up.

17:33

We want to learn stuff about people

17:34

and then show them different things

17:35

and help them in different ways

17:37

based on what we learned about them.

17:38

And this is what good sales reps do

17:39

if there was no product that experience, right?

17:41

It's like you get on the phone with the sales rep

17:43

before they go into autopilot on the demo.

17:45

They'd ask you questions about you and your background

17:48

and your company and your goals and your timeline

17:50

and all that.

17:51

And then they would customize their presentation

17:52

to meet your needs.

17:54

And that's kind of what we want to do

17:55

in this product-led environment.

17:56

We want to identify some key things

17:59

that we think are going to help either in a one-to-one

18:01

or one-to-many motion

18:02

and then make sure that we're arming

18:04

whatever conversion lever we have.

18:06

So in this case, if somebody's signing up

18:09

and we're integrating them into the sales of experience,

18:11

we want to make sure that we're sending the right signals

18:13

into the CRMs where the sales reps are hanging out.

18:15

We want to make sure that we share those goals,

18:17

those jobs to be done,

18:19

maybe the levels of experience that somebody signs up with

18:21

so that the sales rep is enabled

18:23

to continue them along that journey.

18:25

So I think it's making sure the data's in the right place,

18:28

education on what the journey is

18:30

are probably the two building blocks

18:32

that you could riff off of.

18:34

- I love it.

18:35

So then finish this up, go through the examples

18:36

and let's go back to segmentation.

18:38

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

18:39

Cool, so we talked about these three key moments

18:41

to explore them a little bit more.

18:43

So when we think about the offer type,

18:44

so when somebody signs up,

18:46

they get to control the experience that they sign up for.

18:49

If they sign up and they just prefer to engage

18:51

with the sales team, there's typically a few offers,

18:54

even in product-led environments,

18:56

where they can engage, right, a price quo,

18:58

get in touch, got to demos, et cetera,

19:00

or if they don't want that, which play if folks do,

19:03

or don't, excuse me, they can sign up for product-led offer.

19:06

And that's where you're free plan, free trial,

19:07

maybe a reverse free trial, ungated demo,

19:10

those would all be in that bucket.

19:11

They can engage, they can go deeper,

19:13

and they don't have to talk to someone.

19:15

So it's kind of the first.

19:16

The user gets to control.

19:17

The second is during the sign up process.

19:21

I kind of teased this a second ago,

19:23

but there's different ways that you can identify

19:26

who should go to sales when they sign up.

19:28

In my experience, about 15% of the total sign ups

19:32

get siphoned off and sent directly to the sales team.

19:35

So even if you sign up for the self-serve product,

19:37

we might see something about you that says,

19:40

hey, even though you're signed up,

19:41

we're not gonna stop you from using the product,

19:42

but instead of us sending you a one-to-many experience

19:46

in the product via email, et cetera,

19:48

we're gonna send you into our one-to-one

19:49

'cause we think you're worth it.

19:51

And so-- - Account fits,

19:52

named accounts, right, that type of stuff.

19:53

I was all predetermined, yeah.

19:55

- Exactly.

19:56

And so it's like sometimes it might be based

19:58

on some of the segmentation stuff,

19:59

high-value use cases, level of experience.

20:02

If they sign up for, let's say, a free trial

20:05

of your enterprise plan versus your free plan,

20:07

that would be another indicator.

20:09

If they sign up from one of your premium shopper pages,

20:13

if they signed up from an integrations page

20:15

and integrations are only on your most expensive plan,

20:17

then that's where they signed up for your trial from.

20:20

That might be another indicator or something else,

20:23

either that you enrich under the covers

20:25

or ask in the sign up form.

20:26

The goal is about 15%, is typically what I say.

20:30

So during the sign up process is the second moment.

20:33

And then the third moment is based on stuff

20:35

they do later, intense signals.

20:37

And there's three unique types of these that we can explore.

20:41

The first is hand-raising.

20:43

Somebody that's using the product, they're on their own,

20:45

even if they don't look like a top 15% account at sign up,

20:49

they might just raise their hand and be like,

20:50

"Hey, I just need to talk to somebody on the sales team.

20:52

"I preferred, I've got a couple of questions,

20:54

"and I'd feel better just talking to a person."

20:57

And that's what we saw at WistU.

20:59

The second is based on your usage, based on your volume.

21:02

Even if you sign up and you don't look

21:04

like a high value account,

21:05

if you do a whole bunch of stuff

21:07

and the volume that you have looks like a whale,

21:09

probably you should be treated like a whale

21:11

and that would be a backend intense signal.

21:13

And the third is based on your behavior

21:15

or engagement data.

21:17

Are you behaving or using the product in a way

21:19

that indicates, geez, you might be a high value account.

21:22

And those would be three different ways

21:23

that your in-product usage or behavior

21:26

could correlate to buying intent.

21:29

And that would be the types of stuff

21:30

that you would send directly to your CRM

21:33

to empower your team.

21:34

So here's a couple examples.

21:35

Hand-raising's the easiest one.

21:37

'Cause you just build in these moments

21:39

where people can raise their heads and ask for help.

21:41

So here's a cool example.

21:42

This is from Typeform.

21:43

It's an old screen shot, but it's really fun.

21:45

And it's one of the first thing that you see

21:47

when you sign up.

21:48

Hey, thanks for signing up.

21:49

Do you want us to fly solo and explore it around?

21:51

Would you like to raise your hand

21:52

and ask for a little bit of help?

21:54

I think Pendo also does this today

21:56

or it used to do this today.

21:57

Where the first thing you would be asked when you signed up

21:59

is help us help you.

22:01

How do you like to explore new tools?

22:02

And it allows you to choose your own adventure.

22:05

On the usage-based side,

22:07

this is actually an old screen shot

22:08

from Work My Team did at Wistio

22:11

where there's a certain number of videos

22:12

included on your free plan.

22:14

And based on how quickly your cup overfilled, so to speak,

22:18

we would potentially put you

22:19

in our usage-based PQL program.

22:22

You could also do this if you have usage limits

22:24

on your plans.

22:25

So like the example that Derek was asking earlier,

22:28

if you're on like a $10,000 plan,

22:30

that has a certain usage limit.

22:31

When somebody gets awfully close to that limit

22:33

or maybe over that limit,

22:35

that might trigger a backend usage-based PQL.

22:37

There's another common example from Slack.

22:40

I think this is like one of the most famous ones

22:42

that they do still today,

22:43

which is when you get close to your usage limit,

22:45

they start marketing to you in different ways.

22:48

And then another example from my old friends at Wistio,

22:52

this would be a behavioral-based engagement.

22:54

So from time to time,

22:56

you'll see different software companies

22:57

will offer you free trials of their more high-value plans.

23:01

And when you engage in those,

23:02

usually on the backend,

23:03

what it does is it shows high intent

23:05

and it triggers some action or outreach

23:08

from the corresponding team.

23:10

So this is a great example from Wistio doing this.

23:12

Here's another example from Canva.

23:14

We'll talk about Canva in a second

23:16

when we get into segmentation.

23:17

They do the same thing.

23:18

So periodically, if you use Canva a lot,

23:20

they'll just give you these things that'll be like,

23:22

"Hey, we have a special offer.

23:23

Try our next tier up plan for 30 days."

23:27

And if you take them up on that on the backend,

23:29

something usually gets triggered

23:31

and someone personally will reach out

23:32

if your other details look like you're a high-value plan.

23:35

So hybrid motion basically looks like this.

23:39

Three moments where we can integrate the two funnels,

23:42

the user has control over a lot of the experience,

23:45

but we do enhance the experience for folks

23:47

that we think might find value in it or might need it.

23:50

And if you do this correctly,

23:53

what I've personally seen is this in terms of outcomes.

23:56

In a given month, what I have typically seen is

23:59

in terms of total number of new customers,

24:01

like if we're talking about a high-volume environment

24:03

like the one I worked in, Wistio or at PostScript,

24:06

typically what it looks like is this,

24:07

which is in a given month,

24:09

sales should account for about 20% of the number

24:12

of new customers.

24:13

If you've got 100 new customers in a month,

24:15

the sales lead should be about 20 of those customers

24:18

and the other 80 should pull out their credit card

24:19

and buy Touchless on their own

24:21

if you've created a good experience

24:22

and you've got good balance.

24:24

But in terms of revenue is where it gets interesting

24:27

'cause it usually flip flops.

24:28

And this is only for new accounts,

24:30

not expansion and upgrades,

24:32

but for the new accounts,

24:33

sales is only talking to the whales, right?

24:35

So it makes sense, they're bringing in a whole bunch

24:36

of the revenue, a lot of the smaller product-led opportunities

24:41

eventually grow into larger ones

24:42

and they grow and expand and all that good stuff.

24:44

But when they're brand new customers,

24:47

usually they're a lot less revenue.

24:48

So this is kind of a good overview

24:50

of the high-level model here.

24:52

Yeah, this is awesome.

24:55

Let me know if there's any questions, folks.

24:57

We can feed them to Andrew.

24:58

I almost, I'm taking a note down.

25:00

This reminds me of the intersection now

25:02

of partner-led growth and sales-led growth,

25:06

which is more like outbound, if you will, right?

25:08

And then there's community-led growth, if you will,

25:12

and product-led growth, which is more like inbound, right?

25:15

And those two things,

25:18

both intersecting with one another.

25:20

And I'm saying this because

25:23

you also, though, before you get to the free product,

25:28

like you need top-of-funnel traffic.

25:33

You need something, so a quick question on that.

25:35

Like, that ultimately is probably never really

25:39

the responsibility of a PLG team,

25:41

someone else has to get enough traffic

25:43

to generate that sign-up volume.

25:45

Like any thoughts on that?

25:46

Yeah.

25:47

Typically, but where it gets a little fuzzy is,

25:51

let's say, like, Canva's probably a great example,

25:54

or Airtable might be a great example,

25:56

or even Miro's a great example,

25:58

where they have these template marketplaces.

26:01

And so, it's like templates are great for PLG

26:04

because people can sign up and use them,

26:05

and it creates this nice virality loop

26:08

where you can have user-generated content

26:09

and you're creating content

26:10

to help other people to use your platform.

26:12

But typically, it's also a huge long-tail SEO opportunity.

26:16

And so, there's opportunities for collaboration there.

26:19

But yes, typically, you would think about

26:20

a little bit of a hand-off moment

26:22

between generating the right type of traffic,

26:24

and then kind of the commercialization of that traffic,

26:27

with a lot of feedback loops and collaboration, I suppose.

26:33

That's awesome.

26:35

Now, this is a super good visual,

26:38

very easy to understand.

26:40

Yeah, let's go to segmentation now because

26:42

that ultimately is going to probably make or break

26:46

a lot of the 80/20/80 revenue pie charts

26:51

you just kind of showed, right?

26:53

For sure.

26:53

All right, so let's talk about scaling and segmentation.

27:00

And so, I think about this as a building block

27:02

to integrating those two experiences,

27:04

and it actually might make more sense

27:05

going in the order that we did.

27:07

So, everybody knows this.

27:09

You can't treat everybody the same, right?

27:11

There's all these different offers in a product-led world.

27:14

You've got free plans, you've got free trials,

27:16

you've got free trials that convert into free plans,

27:20

you've got these different use cases

27:21

that people sign up with, and different preferences.

27:24

And so, we need to treat people differently

27:25

based on what we know about them,

27:27

but what stuff is important?

27:30

And so, we know segmentation needs to happen

27:32

in some way, shape, or form, right?

27:34

In marketing, we know this.

27:34

We don't run one campaign.

27:36

We don't run one ad grouping.

27:38

We experiment, and what we learn is that over time,

27:40

the more segment that we become,

27:41

usually the higher we convert,

27:43

and it sails, you kind of learn the same thing.

27:45

And so, the question becomes,

27:46

what are the best ways to segment?

27:48

And my team's went down a rabbit hole here.

27:50

We tested vertical, title, persona, industry, revenue, team,

27:55

company-sized geo, like we literally did tests

27:58

against all that stuff, and we wanted to see

28:01

which ways to segment would be the most impactful

28:04

from a conversion standpoint,

28:06

and also be the most actionable.

28:08

And where it led us was down this road,

28:11

which is that the two most powerful levers

28:13

that we could pull to segment in a product-led world

28:16

would be by use case, which I sometimes call job to be done,

28:19

or by level of relevant experience.

28:23

And these are good because one,

28:25

huge differences in conversion rates,

28:26

and two, super actionable.

28:28

Just pause in a case there was any questions.

28:33

Okay, cool.

28:34

- No, I'm just thinking,

28:36

I think that's very interesting.

28:37

The first one I knew about,

28:38

but level of experience, that's interesting.

28:40

Yeah.

28:41

- So all, we'll go deeper.

28:43

- Okay.

28:44

- So if you think about use case or job to be done,

28:47

people sign up with all these different reasons.

28:49

And if you can surface those,

28:51

ideally you can treat them differently in the product

28:53

via email, with your tours, when you're checklist,

28:56

with your sales experience, et cetera.

28:58

And that should lead you to more conversions,

29:00

and sometimes it even aligns really nicely

29:01

with different plan types.

29:03

And that was kind of Derek's question earlier,

29:05

is there a different model here

29:09

for 100K versus a 10K product?

29:11

And probably.

29:12

And sometimes this aligns nicely,

29:15

and sometimes it's not quite perfect.

29:17

And so if we segment by job to be done,

29:18

the main question is how do you figure out

29:20

what your jobs to be done are?

29:21

Because most companies don't really know,

29:24

or they think they know,

29:24

but like they kind of don't really know.

29:25

So my favorite way is you run an open-ended survey,

29:29

either during the sign up form or directly afterwards,

29:32

and you ask an open-ended version of this question.

29:34

Thanks for being here.

29:35

Would you mind sharing the main reason

29:37

why you created an account today?

29:39

And you get their raw responses, you get a couple hundred,

29:42

export them in a spreadsheet.

29:43

Eventually what you'll see is like four or five common themes.

29:46

Those are basically your jobs.

29:48

And then what you wanna do

29:49

is remove the open-ended form,

29:51

and make it a dropdown,

29:52

so that people can self-select what their goal is,

29:55

or what their job to be done is when they sign up.

29:57

I'm gonna give you a few examples of this in the wild.

29:59

So Miro, I love the way that they do this.

30:03

'Cause the first thing you see after you fill out the sign-up form,

30:06

whether it's sign up with Google or you put in your email,

30:08

they literally just say,

30:09

"Hey, tell us what you wanna do.

30:10

We'll customize the product based on your answer."

30:13

And they do.

30:14

So if you select that tile on the top left,

30:16

strategy and planning,

30:17

the very next thing that you see,

30:19

are specific strategy and planning templates, which is great.

30:22

You can imagine that type of segmentation

30:23

leads to better usage and more conversions down the road.

30:26

Canva, all the big players do this, right?

30:29

So Canva is another one,

30:30

the bottom question here after they service

30:32

a couple of things is what your main goal for signing up.

30:35

I answered to create internal communications

30:38

and the very next thing they shared

30:39

are specific templates that I could customize

30:42

for internal sharing, which I thought was very savvy.

30:44

Here's another example.

30:46

It's from COM.

30:48

More B2C, maybe B2C to be what brings you to COM.

30:52

You select, if you select that top goal,

30:54

improve sleep quality,

30:55

they literally change the background

30:57

in all the examples and testimonials

30:59

and everything that you see to be sleep focused,

31:02

which I think is extremely savvy.

31:04

Type forms, another one, what's the goal of your survey?

31:06

This is the first thing you see when you create a new account,

31:08

help us to understand what you're looking to do

31:10

and will help you do it.

31:12

And another example from copy.ai.

31:14

Hey, what's the main use case you're looking to build here?

31:17

And the reason why they're doing all this,

31:18

all the examples, the reason why I've serviced all these,

31:21

is to do two things.

31:22

One, help you learn which of your use cases is most popular.

31:25

Of the folks who are signing up,

31:27

which ones are the most common

31:28

and then help you to figure out

31:30

which one correlates to value more in terms of revenue?

31:33

Which one of these use cases drives the most lifetime revenue?

31:37

Because the ones that sign up that are really, really high,

31:40

those might be part of the 15% that you send straight to sales.

31:43

And this is fantastic.

31:45

If you're able to do this with your product,

31:46

this is fantastic from a marketer standpoint,

31:49

specifically product marketing,

31:50

to help you then better articulate value

31:52

through messaging and copy based off of this data

31:55

and information.

31:56

It's huge.

31:57

And what you find is like you could also use this

31:59

to back out and make website pages for each one of these calls,

32:01

which a lot of the big players have done,

32:03

or even take a feedback loop after folks purchase

32:07

and give that to your acquisitions team and say,

32:08

"Hey, great, go run some specific campaigns focused

32:11

on this use case and use this list for lookalikes."

32:15

And like, you all of a sudden get this great feedback loop

32:17

using your product and intent data.

32:19

So that's why I like jobs to be done in the goal section.

32:22

- Derek is a great perspective.

32:24

Perspective, thank you.

32:25

So, nice job, Andrew.

32:27

- You say in great perspective, thank you.

32:29

- I'll tell you, I appreciate the ad of one.

32:31

(laughing)

32:32

And then the other way we can segment

32:34

that I've learned is really impactful.

32:36

It's level of experience.

32:37

There's three different experience levels, right?

32:39

You could have no experience a little or a lot.

32:42

And pretty intuitive folks that have very little experience,

32:46

probably buy at much lower rates

32:48

than those with lots of experience.

32:49

They buy much slower.

32:50

They need much more education to be successful.

32:53

And knowing enables you to treat them differently.

32:56

But how do you know, so are you gonna get into like,

32:58

how do you know who has, you're gonna get to, okay.

33:00

- Yeah, cool.

33:01

- Cool.

33:02

- So you're saying, you do it, you just ask.

33:03

- That was interesting.

33:04

- And every company I've been at, we just asked.

33:06

So here's Miro, right?

33:07

Directly after you, they always experiment.

33:10

So I'm not sure which screenshot this is from

33:11

if it's today or if this is a few weeks ago,

33:13

but either directly after they asked your goal

33:17

or directly before they asked this,

33:19

which is, have you used Miro before?

33:20

Nope, it's my first time.

33:21

Yeah, have you used it a little bit or yes, often.

33:24

And for the screenshots I took for today,

33:26

I selected, no, it was my first time.

33:28

And if you select that, then they show you

33:32

an introduction to Miro, like slider tour thing.

33:35

And then just to be sure, I signed up again,

33:38

and I did it as an expert,

33:39

and it was like much more contextual guidance

33:41

that probably a beginner wasn't ready for him.

33:43

So I love this.

33:44

Mm, happy.ai does the same thing.

33:47

If you're in an industry like in the AI space

33:50

where everything's new and people,

33:51

it's like the use case kind of determines

33:54

how successful you are in the product,

33:55

because a lot of people don't engage in the product

33:57

'cause they don't know how to use it.

34:00

Service and this is everything.

34:01

And so they do the same thing.

34:02

They ask, have you used generative AI before?

34:05

Whoops, yes, I've used it, or no, I've never done it.

34:08

I've done it a little bit, or I use this all the time.

34:10

And then they treat you differently.

34:12

They show you different educational resources.

34:14

They suggest different help videos,

34:17

different examples, different testimonials

34:18

based on what you share.

34:19

And then Shopify does this too.

34:23

And the whole goal is because once you understand

34:25

someone's use case and their level of experience,

34:27

you can provide a ton of value on their terms

34:30

and determine where you should prioritize.

34:33

And then as we talked about like integrating

34:34

with the sales experience, some of these use cases,

34:37

you just siphon right off to sales at the moment of signup

34:39

because you know, if they sign up with this use case

34:42

and they have a lot of experience, then sheesh.

34:45

Pretty high likelihood that they're gonna buy

34:46

and probably buy one of our high-value plans

34:49

and probably gonna have some custom questions

34:50

that our team needs to be ready and prepared for.

34:53

And this is some of the ways that you can use product data

34:56

and product led data to enhance the sales experience,

34:59

can use that product data to sell more and sell faster, ideally.

35:03

- Love this.

35:06

So each of these will take someone down a different path.

35:11

- Yeah.

35:12

- And after that initial onboarding,

35:15

have you seen them be used for anything else?

35:18

- The goals and things like that?

35:20

- Yeah, like the experience level.

35:22

Like that piece of information, like outside

35:24

of just the initial product onboarding, you know,

35:27

say they click away and they come back in three days,

35:30

is this being used?

35:31

Have you seen it be used in any other facet?

35:33

Is it being used with the sales team in any way?

35:35

How else is this data maybe being used

35:37

to help someone get to a purchase?

35:39

- When I think about activation and like new user behavior,

35:45

there's sort of these three checkpoints in the process.

35:49

There's the setup, which is helping you customize

35:52

your account and colors and all that kind of stuff.

35:56

There's hitting the aha moment,

35:59

which is getting to that first value

36:01

for the first time, you know,

36:02

experiencing value for the first time.

36:04

And your journey there is gonna be different

36:05

if you're new versus if you're very experienced.

36:08

It's gonna be a lot faster if you're experienced.

36:10

And then ideally onboarding us one more step,

36:13

which is helping someone experience that value again

36:16

and develop a habit or increase their behavior over time.

36:21

And so I've seen it be really helpful in that journey.

36:25

And it's gonna take a lot more prodding and encouragement

36:29

and examples and documentation

36:31

to get to that habit formation step than not.

36:34

But no, when somebody's at that habit formation step,

36:36

typically they grow out of the beginner

36:38

into like the more intermediate level.

36:40

And I think you've done your job at that point.

36:42

I've never resurveated like,

36:43

hey, when you signed up, you said you were a beginner,

36:45

would you say you're still a beginner?

36:47

But that was fun.

36:48

- That's really helpful.

36:50

No, that's super helpful.

36:51

Question, after someone engages in a journey and buys,

36:56

do you also set up journeys that help them mature

36:59

from the current level of experience

37:00

to a higher level of experience?

37:03

So after they buy.

37:05

- Not in that exact way, but in a different way, yes.

37:09

So when I think about later in the product led journey,

37:13

let's say there's a paying customer.

37:17

They've been around for a couple of years.

37:19

And when we analyze their data,

37:20

they're not as engaged as another paying customer.

37:24

So what I have, the playbook that I've run there

37:27

that I've seen work really, really well,

37:28

is to come up with some kind of internal engagement score

37:31

and then you can rank everybody on this scale

37:34

and then run specific campaigns to target folks

37:36

who are kind of in the middle of that engagement score.

37:39

They're not totally disengaged.

37:40

Those are hard folks to nudge up.

37:42

They're a little engaged and they could become very engaged

37:45

with the right targeted campaigns or ideas or approaches

37:48

or suggestions.

37:50

So that's how I've leveraged that later in the product journey.

37:54

- Great tip, love that.

37:58

That's it for your slides, right?

37:59

No more slides.

38:00

- Yeah, yeah, that was it.

38:01

Yeah, we went one, three, two in the order,

38:03

but yeah, that's everything.

38:05

- No, that's perfect.

38:06

So I wanna ask though about interactive demos.

38:08

- Yeah, I mean.

38:09

- So yeah, feel free to just take the slides off

38:11

if you wanna just go to your end slide

38:13

and let people know where they can find you.

38:15

- I'm putting them in the slides.

38:16

'Cause if you all have questions, come find me.

38:18

I'm active on LinkedIn and I help companies

38:20

with this stuff all day, every day.

38:22

So I love it.

38:23

- Andrew knows what he's talking about.

38:25

If you couldn't know.

38:26

I highly recommend and vouch that if you score even

38:31

scratching the surface, thinking about PLG

38:33

to have a full blown PLG motion, talk to Andrew.

38:37

So that's all I'm gonna say.

38:39

I just talked to Andrew, he knows through a lot

38:42

of deep experience and now working with, I mean.

38:46

So is Maro one of your customers?

38:47

Can you share that?

38:48

Is that one of your customers?

38:49

- No, no, Vera is not one of my customers.

38:51

- Okay.

38:52

- Maro's just one of the companies that when you need

38:54

to find examples of what good looks like

38:57

almost across the board from the outside looking in,

39:00

they do a lot of the things really, really well.

39:02

And they use segmentation in a great way

39:04

and they experiment constantly

39:06

and they're constantly reinventing

39:08

and basically disrupting themselves

39:10

like what we talked about earlier.

39:12

- Well, that's a simple, no, go ahead.

39:14

Sorry, take a sip of water.

39:16

I'm just saying that's a simple tip.

39:17

Like that to me, just follow the patterns.

39:21

So just sign up for 15, 20, 25 reproduct experiences

39:25

and you'll see patterns.

39:27

Like don't try to reinvent something here.

39:30

You may want to innovate off of some PLG pattern,

39:33

but the patterns exist, right, Andrew?

39:35

- Yeah, they're out there.

39:37

- If you look at the big mature players,

39:39

those are the ones to pattern match off of.

39:41

Every small company has the linear thing.

39:44

It's like they might have a free plan or a free trial.

39:47

Maybe they've even done a little bit of onboarding work.

39:49

A couple people have bought it and they're not sure why.

39:52

And the reason why is 'cause they have this one size fits

39:54

all thing, but they don't know how else to build it, right?

39:57

Or they're stuck debating how do we segment,

39:59

how many different things should we segment,

40:01

who do we prioritize, when we do segment,

40:02

and that's kind of why I structured the content today,

40:05

the way that I did.

40:06

And I love it.

40:07

All right, so last thing, unless there's other questions,

40:09

interact with demos.

40:10

- I thought we were gonna jam on interactive demos.

40:12

- No, no, that's the last thing.

40:13

That's what I'm saying.

40:14

That's the last thing.

40:15

No, no, I want to jam on this heart

40:16

'cause we'll carve this down to make it

40:18

into a couple clips probably.

40:20

Interactive demos, I love Nevada,

40:22

shout out to Natalie and the team over in Nevada.

40:24

What's your take?

40:28

Just so start the learn.

40:29

- Yeah.

40:30

- As the person directly accountable

40:32

for the results of the product lead motion,

40:34

I was frustrated because what I saw over and over

40:37

is about 40 to 50% of the people that signed up

40:41

didn't do anything.

40:42

Like every Friday, my team would watch

40:44

a bunch of new signups.

40:45

We'd get in a room, we'd pull up full story

40:46

and we'd watch 20 people go through the onboarding process.

40:49

And it was like half of them signed up,

40:52

clicked three things and left.

40:53

And then they never came back and we're like,

40:55

the hell's going on, man?

40:56

Like, what is the deal?

40:57

And so we surveyed like tens of thousands of people.

41:01

We got two responses.

41:02

The response was like, it's so hard to engage people

41:04

that are already disengaged.

41:06

But the responses were basically,

41:08

I just wanted to see the product.

41:09

You had some screenshots.

41:10

I wanted to see it in action.

41:11

I wanted to see the user experience.

41:13

I just wanted to poke around.

41:14

I'm not ready.

41:15

I don't have a video today.

41:16

I'm not ready to buy tomorrow.

41:17

I'm doing some research

41:19

or something that I might be interested in

41:21

two months from now.

41:22

And we were like, oh, that's kind of interesting.

41:24

And so it was like, we had this issue

41:26

'cause we had all these signups.

41:27

It was clogging.

41:28

It was messing up our data.

41:29

There was so much noise in the numbers

41:30

and we had a hard time modeling out

41:32

what we thought our month would look like

41:33

from a revenue standpoint.

41:35

So we were like, shoot, what if we just ungated

41:38

parts of the product?

41:39

We could make different versions

41:40

of the ungated experience based on the use cases

41:42

that we think are most popular.

41:44

And let's just put it on the website and see what happens.

41:47

But so we did that at Wistia.

41:48

And what we found is the total signups went down.

41:51

But the number of activated accounts actually went up.

41:54

And so we're like, shoot, this had an unintended benefit

41:56

of actually helping people build momentum in the product

41:59

before they actually felt the form

42:01

and get into the product.

42:02

That's pretty killer.

42:03

And what happened is folks were writing in and say,

42:05

hey, this experience is great.

42:07

It's providing a lot of value.

42:08

My team loved it.

42:09

I could share it externally

42:11

and everyone understood all the features

42:13

and the benefits.

42:14

And I was like, man, well, that's pretty fascinating.

42:16

And so I went to PostScript, my last gig

42:19

and we built the exact same similar experience.

42:22

And we did it in-house.

42:23

Like it took us weeks of engineering time.

42:25

If anyone works with engineers,

42:26

you gotta know about code decay,

42:28

which means if you just stop building

42:29

it at some point, it rakes.

42:31

And so now when I work with companies

42:33

who are interested in validating this,

42:35

'cause you should validate before you go

42:37

spend weeks and weeks of building,

42:39

I think it's great.

42:40

There's all these third party tools

42:41

and the bad is usually the one I send folks to as well.

42:43

But it's great to have some way using no code

42:46

or low code tools to quickly spin up

42:48

some of these things and validate it.

42:49

And I'm a huge fan of the movement

42:51

because I've seen, I've seen what happens

42:54

if you don't have this,

42:55

which is that it's frustrating for people

42:56

and it's frustrating for you pulling the numbers.

42:59

- Great perspective.

43:00

One thing that I took away from that is this idea of like

43:03

quality versus quantity and how this

43:07

interactive demo type experience

43:11

can help on the quality side when it comes to PLG

43:15

and also kind of maybe open up the top of the funnel a bit.

43:18

- In different ways, for sure.

43:22

Definitely helps with the quality

43:24

'cause by the time they get into your product,

43:26

they've already used it a bunch.

43:27

They've already built momentum.

43:28

They already know what to expect,

43:30

filtered out all the tire kickers, so to speak.

43:33

So like quality is higher.

43:35

Typically that's reflected when folks write in.

43:37

Like they write in and we'll talk about it.

43:38

They'll be like, oh, that interactive thing,

43:40

pre-sign up, like that was so cool.

43:41

That's why we bought it.

43:42

I was able to share with my boss and they got it

43:44

and all this stuff.

43:44

And yeah, on the acquisition side,

43:48

you can use it for retargeting, for remodeling.

43:50

It's a major touch point in the process.

43:52

And it's a different offer for folks who want a demo,

43:55

but don't want to talk to somebody

43:57

or don't want it over to the phone

43:58

or don't want to be sold to.

43:59

So a ton of benefits you can use for,

44:02

you know, in other ways.

44:04

- Okay, very interesting, fantastic.

44:08

Andrew, I don't think there's any other questions.

44:09

I don't see any right now.

44:11

Huge thank you for you putting this together in your time.

44:15

And people can connect with you on LinkedIn,

44:18

check out DeliveringValue.co.

44:20

There'll be a lot of people watching this on demand.

44:23

So reach out to Andrew, anything related to PLG,

44:27

woodworking, he's your go tip.

44:29

- All of it, man, you want to make a new table?

44:33

- Let's talk.

44:36

- What's your favorite type of wood?

44:38

I know it depends on what you're baking.

44:39

So let's use the table as an example.

44:40

What would you love to make a table out of?

44:43

- Well, so I made a table out of black walnut

44:45

and it's my favorite thing that I've ever made.

44:47

Yeah, black walnut is beautiful, it's expensive.

44:51

But if you're making something for your house,

44:52

you're going to use every day for many, many years,

44:54

totally worth it.

44:56

I have a new project coming up that haven't started yet.

44:59

I'm going to try to get a live edge slab.

45:01

I've done a slab before, but I'm going to try to get two slabs

45:04

and book match them.

45:05

So basically two pieces of the tree that you fold this way

45:07

and you attach them so it looks like one seamless design.

45:10

And I'm going to try to make that into a dining table

45:12

at some point in my new house.

45:14

- Oh, that's awesome.

45:15

Good luck with that.

45:16

That sounds amazing.

45:18

Yeah, you could, I mean, you probably know more than I do.

45:22

People listen and they're some big money in that stuff.

45:24

You know, people spend, people will pay big money

45:27

for those types of tables.

45:28

My friends all joke, they're like,

45:29

what are you doing going, doing the tech thing?

45:31

You should just go do that full time, but I don't know.

45:34

You know, different, maybe in a different chapter in my life.

45:37

Fair enough.

45:38

Well, congrats on the next kid.

45:40

Thank you again, my friends and everyone listening.

45:42

Thank you so much.

45:43

Have a great rest of your day week

45:46

and we'll see you at the next one.

45:48

Thanks for having me.

45:49

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