Zero-Click Content & 2024 Marketing Stats | Amanda Natividad

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He had two videos side by side and they were the same exact video, same exact

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talk track.

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And so one of them was AI and one of them was actually him.

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And to be honest with you, I actually couldn't tell the difference.

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I use it, but I don't like how it's being used in these ways.

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Or like I'm going to use it all the way.

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I'm just going to become one of the most politically charged things I think

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that happens over the next five to ten years.

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They don't really get it.

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They don't understand editing, right?

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They think you're a content marketer, like can you just do it?

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Or like can't that writer just do it?

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But writing and editing are two different skill sets.

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Real talk backed up with real action.

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This is GTM News Desk.

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I'm Nick Bennett and I'm Mark Killens.

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Let's see what's trending.

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All right, welcome to another GTM News Desk episode.

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Super excited about this one.

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We have a fantastic, I guess that's in our third segment today.

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I'm sure you all know our man and the two that add really breaks down zero

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click content.

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You're going to love it.

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But we've got some headlines that we want to talk about beforehand.

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I'm going to kick things off here with our first story of the day.

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And I think this one's a little interesting.

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You know, Sam Rush, they put out a blog recently about content marketing

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statistics.

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And I figured we could dive into kind of like some of those content marketing

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statistics.

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Because I think some of them are interesting and in marketing, you know, I don

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't have a

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content marketing background by any means.

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I know maybe you don't either, but I think that like we've done a lot of.

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I do Nick.

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You don't know me.

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I have a content marketing background.

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What do you mean?

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I guess I mean, we could all say we have content marketing back.

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I said, like I post content on LinkedIn.

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This is what I was going to say dude.

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Everyone creates content these days thanks to freaking Mark Zuckerberg and

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Steve Jobs iPhone.

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Everyone creates content.

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That's true.

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All right.

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Let's get into a few things.

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So I want to call out a few of these statistics here.

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So there was one about long form content and the fun enough are our guest

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Amanda.

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She talks about content being too long.

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So we're talking about long form content, 3000 plus words.

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It gets three times more traffic, four times more shares and three and a half

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times more

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backlinks than shorter articles, which is interesting.

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Now I think it's impressive.

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And now I mean again, I'm just taking this, I'm reading the data.

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I don't know if I've tested this personally.

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Like I feel like for me, my sweet spot's about 1500 words, but from a B2B

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context, I feel

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like death and quality of insights are paramount.

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So like when you think about how long form content works and it works well

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because you can

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have a comprehensive like breakdown of a topic, which depending on your

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industry, your

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niche segment, all those things make sense.

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But I think it's essential to balance that depth with readability, which I feel

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like sometimes

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people forget about like, how do I like as a content marketer, you're so stuck

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in your

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little zone or as someone that creates content, you're stuck in your little

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zone, but you

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forget about the readability and engagement piece.

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So how can you break long form content into digestible sections?

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How can you use visual elements?

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How can you provide executive summaries for people like, you know, the exact

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teams that

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just don't have enough time to read it?

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And I think it's interesting because this is important of I feel like a larger

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piece,

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like how do you chop up content into a bunch of different pieces and distribute

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it?

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But like, how do you, how do you focus on readability?

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And I'm curious on your thoughts on that piece or better planning and better

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editing and

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better research.

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I mean, you know, in practice, practice, you know, makes perfect maybe, but it

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does help,

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it does help a lot.

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There is not one single way to do content marketing.

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I mean, this, this thing from SDM rush 96 something stats.

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So there's, there's an interesting thing happening right now in content

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marketing world.

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A lot of people are over indexing a little bit too much maybe on this research

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based content.

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That well will dry up.

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I mean, it's, there's only so many times you can, you can do this research.

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I, I would say that good research based content, which this is, it has a rhythm

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to it.

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Maybe it's once a year, maybe it's every six months, but it's not just

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publishing stats.

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Like no offense, this SDM rush thing kind of sucks.

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I'm calling it a SDM rush.

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But it's just a bunch of bullshit stats that it's curing it from all these

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places.

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So I don't even think it's their own research.

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Some of it might be some of it is a lot of just curation.

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It's like, so what?

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Like, okay, you give me a stat.

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Like, so fucking cares.

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Like, give me the TLDR, the really sharp insight that says this is how you

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should think

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about this or act on it or do something with it or like, give me the meat, not

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the potatoes.

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I am so excited to talk more to Amanda because I know she's very passionate

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about this idea

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of less is more.

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And when you just throw stats at people, it's like, you're not going to

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remember any of that

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stuff.

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It's like cool stats, stats, stats, stats.

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Like, but when you add a personal story with that stat and give it life and

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make it actually

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something that jumps off the screen or jumps off the paper, you might have

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something better

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there.

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I don't know, SCM rush and I'm not just calling you.

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I'm going to call out anyone and I'm guilty of this.

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I've done this in my past jobs.

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You know, we didn't maybe do a good job of giving value with the stat.

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You're just throwing stats out.

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It's just come on.

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We can do better.

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Yeah, 100%.

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And it's, you know, I think going through a lot of these stats, I agree.

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I'm just like, you know, kind of really.

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And I'm like, huh, that's cool.

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But one thing, the last thing that I wanted to touch in on this because I feel

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like

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it's something that we're leaning into is video content.

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The last thing that I wanted to say is that I'm going to call it a video

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content.

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I'm going to call it a video content.

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I'm going to call it a video content.

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I'm going to call it a video content.

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I'm going to call it a video content.

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I'm going to call it a video content.

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I'm going to call it a video content.

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I'm going to call it a video content.

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I'm going to call it a video content.

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I'm going to call it a video content.

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I'm going to call it a video content.

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I'm going to call it a video content.

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I'm going to call it a video content.

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I'm going to call it a video content.

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I'm going to call it a video content.

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I'm going to call it a video content.

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I'm going to call it a video content.

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I'm looking at this, blogging continues to be a top marketing strategy.

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Yes, blogging is important.

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It's important.

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Top marketing strategy.

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Should you use AI for blogging?

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Absolutely.

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But never to replace human writers own just streamline their work.

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How many people have said that?

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It's not interesting.

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Blogging is important to making sure that you have the right representation of

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your brand

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and product on search because people are always going to search.

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Great.

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Here's how we think about blogging today in an example.

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That's a much better way to explain this than just saying what everyone else is

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saying.

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And look, everyone including ourselves is our guilty of this.

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It's not easy to get to this level of thoughtful content, genuine content.

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So I think the video thing is like we've been saying this for 50 forever.

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Guess what?

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TV's been around for 100 years almost.

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Yes, video is very important and good.

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So I don't know.

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I may be just too negative right now about all this stuff, but I'm trying to

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give positive

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light to this Nick where you can do something like what SCM rush has done, but

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do it in a way

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that truly injects a personality and a point of view into a research-based

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piece of content

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and not just make it a listicle of stats, right?

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And not just, you know, paint by a thousand numbers or whatever, right?

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Like just give it some texture, give it some like nice life.

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And that kind of goes into segment number two, which is this whole thing with

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Instagram.

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Mark Zuckerberg, we already mentioned it once in this episode.

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Not a huge fan.

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I definitely gave up a lot of potential money by not investing in Facebook,

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even though

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I knew Facebook stock was good, you pretty well.

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I, on principle, Nick did not invest in Facebook.

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And now I technically have, which kind of annoys me because I know in some of

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the mutual funds

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that Facebook's part of it.

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So it's like, I'm like, well, am I going to go to that extreme?

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Maybe I should.

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But anyway, I gave up Facebook as you might know, Nick, in 2007.

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I've not logged in since because I could see issues coming down the road.

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And you could say I was kind of right with some of these issues.

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But now I think it meta is doing something insane, which is they're letting

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people create

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AI versions of themselves, which look, do I believe that every single person on

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this planet

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will have an AI agent or multiple AI agents or whatever new terms we come up

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with that are

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going to help them live a better life?

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Yes, I'm excited about that.

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Maybe this is a step in that direction.

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I just feel like right now that the way that they're doing it where it's like,

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hey, the

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new AI studio, you can create characters for Instagram, WhatsApp and Messenger

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in the

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web. And it's kind of like a free for all.

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I just like, why?

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Like, why would you, so Nick, why would you create an AI version of yourself?

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Would you do it?

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Well, you know, it's interesting because there's this other tool out there

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called, I think

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it's called the KGN or something like that.

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And so Ross Simmons was the one that told me about it.

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And so I saw him write something where he had two videos side by side.

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And they were the same exact video, same exact talk track.

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And so one of them was AI and one of them was actually him.

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And to be honest with you, I actually couldn't tell the difference.

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I like had to go to the comments to be able to see like, which one was AI and

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which one wasn't.

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And so I actually on one of my old podcasts, I had them on and I asked them

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about that.

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I said, you know, what's the point of investing in like an AI version of

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yourself?

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And he said to scale content.

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And I thought it was interesting because if you think about this and like, you

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know,

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if you look at like a TikTok or I'm sure Instagram as well, it's like people

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are creating

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faceless channels and AI versions and they're making tons of money through

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brand deals because

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it's so easy to create content.

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Go on, go on like a chat GPT or clot or something.

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Come up with this really interesting script or, you know, whatever.

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And you basically just feed it into this software and it creates you doing it.

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And it's like, great, I don't actually have to get on camera.

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I don't have to go film myself.

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I don't have to edit anything.

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It just does it all for me.

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So that's where I can see it being.

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I get it could be kind of creepy kind of weird because there's big channels out

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there that

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are all just they're 100% AI and they have millions of followers and like some

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people don't

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even know it's AI, but it clearly says it.

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And I don't know.

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I'm just like, could that be a way to like scale content and like not having to

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shoot

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your own content?

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If you can make it look like like I'm talking right now in a that AI version,

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because look

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exactly like me word for word.

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It doesn't look like a robot or anything like that.

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I might actually try it.

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Why do we need?

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Why do we need you Nick?

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Well, we still I'm just kidding.

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But that's I mean, it's like I'm kidding, but like seriously, you do, it's a

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really great

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mental thought exercise around around a table to have.

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I mean, look, go back to this article meta.

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Calls it out where they say this is an AI avatar person.

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So like it should be labeled like, yeah, and there's there's a lot of accounts

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like you

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said that are just AI generated.

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I think what's happening, AI is to become one of the most politically charged

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things and

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you already see this on LinkedIn, at least where there are people taking sides

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like I hate

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the AI.

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I use it, but I don't like how it's being used in these ways or like I'm going

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to use it

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all the way.

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I just going to become one of the most politically charged things.

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I think that happens over the next five to 10 years as it really kind of gets

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ingrained.

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And hopefully it can become something that is not so much about like the AI,

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but it's about

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how do people use it, which is going to ultimately what matters at the end of

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the day.

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It's like, who cares what the technology is like, what is the use and then the

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result of

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that use.

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And it is going to create, I think, more the ability for more bad actors.

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I'm nervous about AI because I don't think unless we really are thoughtful

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about how we

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use it.

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It could easily be another whole social media shits storm, which really has, it

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's hurting

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the younger generations, even older generations, people, mental health.

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This is a fact is being compromised day in and day out by social media, social

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networks.

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I am concerned gravely that AI is going to exacerbate that and even do more

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damage.

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So I don't know.

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I'm, I'm, I'm nurse.

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Yeah.

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I mean, the next, the next year will be interesting for sure.

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So the conversation with a man is coming up next.

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We're going to talk about algorithms.

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We've just talked about AI.

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I think there's a huge amount of crap that's kind of happened because now AI is

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getting

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layered into algorithms and companies are going to have to be very thoughtful

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and careful

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about how they use these technologies for hopefully the greater good.

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And when you think about content, which is what we're going to talk to a man

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about Nick,

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how do we create content that is really going to be something that that person

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who gets

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seen that content, usually now because of an algorithm or AI or hopefully comes

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from

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a person, right?

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There's some still social sharing happening in the world is done in a

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thoughtful, the right

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way and done in a way that genuine.

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So I mean, Amanda is a pro at this.

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She knows a ton of great content.

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She's talked a ton about and created the term Nick, right?

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Zero click content.

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Yep.

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She, I mean, she's the creator of that, the creator.

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She is going to help us all understand the balance between the algorithm, the

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human

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and the lib of the AI.

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She's like, yeah, I mean, just the stuff that we talked about today with this

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stuff with

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AI, I am nervous.

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I am nervous.

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Are you nervous?

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I'm nervous, but I'm excited.

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But yeah, I mean, still, still nervous.

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Absolutely.

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I'm optimistic.

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I'm optimistic that we can figure this stuff out.

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But like the last 15, 20 years of these algos and what's happened with social

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media, it

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gives me a great pause.

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I will say that 100%.

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All right, let's go to segment three with Amanda.

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All right.

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We are here for segment three of this episode.

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We're super excited.

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We have someone that I feel like I've known Amanda for years now.

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She's actually been on multiple other podcasts of mine.

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So I'm excited to have her here.

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If you don't know her, Amanda Nativity that she's the VP of Marketing or a

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Spark Toro.

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Absolutely changing the game.

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One of the smartest people I know.

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And so I'm super stoked to have her here.

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We're going to kind of be diving into a few other things.

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Ultimately, we want to think about going beyond the traditional experiences and

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expectations

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around demand.

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And honestly, Spark Toro is changing the game.

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And I think Amanda is playing a big piece of that a chorus with Rand as well.

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But we're going to dive into it.

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Amanda, again, super stoked to have you here.

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I think you're going to add a lot of value.

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So, you know, people know who you are.

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We'll make sure to link everything.

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But let's dive into kind of the first question here.

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And it's really pretty simple.

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But how do you make content today not suck?

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How do you make content today not suck?

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It's like, you know what?

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Honestly, that's a really good question.

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I think that's a good way to phrase it because when you think about content

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that sucks, you

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might think of content that's like commoditized.

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Anybody could create it.

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It's not interesting.

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It is.

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It rambly.

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It's not helpful, right?

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I might describe a lot of content that sucks as AI generated content, right?

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Like you have, we're starting to see a lot of people like feed crap into chat

16:06

GPT and

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then be like, "Hey, let's just use this for our content."

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And it sucks.

16:10

And I think more and more, right?

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Readers, users can spot this a mile away and they're like, "I'm not going to

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read this."

16:17

Right?

16:18

So, when I think about content that doesn't suck, I think about things like,

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what would

16:22

I actually want to read?

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Like if I were the target audience for this thing, would I want to read this?

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I think about things like, as the person writing it, right?

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As the writer, do I think this is interesting in some way?

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Do I, does it amuse me?

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Right?

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Is this better than chat GPT?

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That's kind of what I think about these days.

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I love that.

16:42

I know Mark has lots of thoughts around that because we've talked a lot about

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that the AI

16:45

side of things.

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But you know what really pisses me off is like so many people on social now,

16:52

like LinkedIn

16:52

definitely, like people are just basically resplend comments using AI.

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And I feel like they're so easy to spot out.

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And it's like, you would think they would get better with time, but I feel like

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, I don't

17:03

know, it just, it annoys me because like I like to reply to, like when I write

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content,

17:08

like I reply to every single comment.

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And I can tell that it's AI written, but I still like be like obligated to

17:15

reply to

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it.

17:17

And I don't know, it just, it just makes me so mad because like deep down, like

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I really

17:19

wish I didn't reply to this.

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But like, you know, the algorithm will kill you if you don't, you know, reply

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to everything.

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So Mark, I don't know if you have it.

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I know, I thought you think a lot about AI.

17:30

Well, I mean, I like AI.

17:32

I'm very excited about the future of AI.

17:36

Going back to this question, to me, and this gets into the next question,

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Amanda, that

17:41

I'll ask you in just a moment.

17:42

But when it comes to making content that sucks, a lot of people don't spend

17:47

enough time

17:48

planning and thinking through how they want to architect something that to your

17:54

point,

17:54

I think it's very well said, is something that the audience you're trying to

17:59

create a connection

18:00

with and build a relationship with is going to find interesting.

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So it's like that classic thing where you're spending 80% of your time planning

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, 20% of

18:09

your time executing.

18:10

And I think content marketers today now feel like they can take shortcuts

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because of

18:14

some things like AI, but there's other technology too that allows you to like

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make it easy.

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And no, like you actually want to create more friction, more time in the

18:25

process of creating

18:26

something that is really unique and of value.

18:30

So yeah, for me, it's being a bit more thoughtful about your content strategy

18:36

and involving

18:38

more people in the creation of the content.

18:41

Like you really want to get more people to be part of that experience so that

18:48

you have

18:48

a diverse set of voices and it's more inclusive for the audience, I think.

18:54

Yeah.

18:55

Say more about more people.

18:56

Do you mean like, do you mean even just in the broadest sense?

19:01

Like are you thinking about your whole audience or do you mean like actually

19:04

getting more stakeholders?

19:06

It's a bit about both I think.

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I think there's definitely more people that can be part of the actual content

19:13

that gets

19:13

created and published and shared around, but then working with people inside

19:18

your company

19:19

to almost validate going back to the idea of planning, some of the things you

19:22

're going

19:23

to create like, hey, we're going to spend 50, 100 hours, maybe thousands or

19:26

tens of thousands

19:27

of dollars creating this.

19:29

Do you feel like this is something that is going to help you do your job better

19:32

, which means

19:33

ultimately help the company succeed more, which means it's going to hopefully

19:37

add something

19:38

of value and interest to the audience that we're all trying to create a

19:41

partnership with,

19:41

right?

19:42

What's up with something with?

19:43

So just spending more time validating ideas or assumptions or facts to your

19:49

question is

19:50

both in my opinion.

19:51

Yeah, I could see that.

19:53

I think like, I think one really good way to involve more people in your

19:58

content creation

20:00

is to really just be present on social media in a way that shows that you're

20:06

pulling

20:07

and other people's thoughts, their opinions, really rounding out your point of

20:11

view.

20:11

Sometimes the way that I, if I have enough time and I'm able to just kind of

20:16

put more thought

20:16

into this, I really like asking questions on social media like I think did, for

20:21

instance,

20:21

like asking people's opinion on something and then from there seeing how people

20:25

respond

20:26

to that and seeing like, maybe I can quote people, right?

20:30

Or oftentimes I'll even DM them and ask them like, hey, can I ask you a couple

20:33

of follow-up

20:34

questions on this?

20:35

Would love to quote you my upcoming blog post.

20:37

It's also just a really great way to round up the perspective source additional

20:42

quotes,

20:43

even just raise other people up, right?

20:45

And just even be like, hey, you had a really good opinion on this thing.

20:48

I really want people to see your point of view.

20:51

Do you have more to say on this topic?

20:52

Spawn on.

20:53

I always say 80%.

20:54

It might even be 100% now, but I've used this rule since my days at HubSpot.

20:59

Like 80% of your content should involve other people in the content.

21:04

It needs to have those voices that are the actual audience or at least voices

21:11

that the audience

21:12

wants to learn from or hair from or care about.

21:17

So this might be a tough question because I want one answer, Amanda.

21:22

So think long and hard.

21:24

What is the biggest mistake, content marketers, or anyone creating content in

21:31

2024?

21:32

What is that biggest mistake they're making today right now?

21:35

I think the biggest mistake people are making is making content that's too long

21:41

Ooh, I like it.

21:43

I like it.

21:44

Okay.

21:45

So let's unpack this now.

21:47

This should get interesting.

21:48

Tell us more.

21:49

I'll just say tell us more first.

21:51

Yeah.

21:52

I hear that feeling right when you like a lot of times people say like, oh,

21:55

that business

21:56

book could have been a blog post.

21:58

Now I just feel like that blog post could have been a tweet, you know, or that

22:02

blog post

22:02

could have been a short LinkedIn post, right?

22:05

Because I feel like so many times and I say this as somebody who I write two

22:10

newsletters.

22:11

So I am often looking for content to link to and I'm saying content in the

22:16

sense that I'm

22:17

talking about any kind of content, talking about white papers, ebooks, blog

22:21

posts, newsletter

22:22

posts, sub stacks, YouTube videos, right?

22:24

Any kind of content.

22:25

I'm often looking for this stuff, which means I'm often consuming this stuff.

22:29

So I would say is like I'm reading a lot, I'm watching a lot and almost every

22:34

single time

22:35

I'm going to say somehow more than nine times out of 10, although not quite 10

22:40

out of 10

22:41

times, I'm reading something or watching something and I'm like, oh my gosh,

22:44

just get to the

22:45

point.

22:46

And I'm reading it and I'm watching it and I'm like, I get like a quarter of

22:49

the way through

22:50

and I'm like, that's where you should have started.

22:53

So I feel like maybe even just one easy way that people can remedy this, not

22:57

easy, maybe

22:58

simple, right?

22:59

Because simple might not be easy.

23:00

One simple way to remedy this is to like finish that blog post or whatever that

23:04

content

23:05

is and then challenge yourself to be like, can I say this exact same thing in

23:12

70% of the

23:13

time?

23:14

So I love this.

23:15

I'm going to, you know, Nick Chiamin to feel free, but there's two things I

23:18

want to call

23:19

out here.

23:20

I think one of the biggest skill sets that it should be happening already, but

23:24

now with

23:25

the advent of all these shortcuts, whatever is editing.

23:31

Editors and editing is going to be one of the top, top things that a company is

23:37

going to

23:37

look for, especially on the marketing team.

23:40

So I would love to get your reaction to that.

23:42

And then another tip I'll give folks in addition to yours is this idea of bluff

23:47

Have you ever heard of bluff?

23:48

Amanda?

23:49

I've got it's a military term bottom line up front.

23:55

So it goes to the point you made about get to the point, put the bottom line,

23:58

the most important

23:59

thing up front and then you can unpack it.

24:02

But like, don't bury the lead.

24:04

What do you think though about editing the editor piece?

24:07

Like there's like content worker to content marketers.

24:09

What about content editors?

24:11

Hello?

24:12

We need more, right?

24:13

Like I think the tough thing is that people who don't understand editing AKA

24:17

business leaders,

24:19

right?

24:20

Like really the people who are not running the content day to day, but are

24:22

somehow responsible

24:23

for the organization or for the team, they don't really get it.

24:26

They don't understand editing, right?

24:28

They think you're a content marketer.

24:30

Like can you just do it or like can't that writer just do it?

24:34

But writing and editing are two different skill sets, right?

24:38

Like not everyone's a great editor, not everyone's a great writer.

24:42

You can be a good editor, but you might not be a great writer, right?

24:46

Because part of editing, and it's not all of it, part of editing is having that

24:51

sensibility

24:52

of like this isn't quite right, right?

24:54

And maybe it's pushing back on the writer or the author to say like this idea

24:59

here, this

25:01

isn't really a match, the tone of everything else you're saying or like you're

25:05

not using

25:06

a clear enough example.

25:07

I'm going to challenge you on this.

25:09

You should try it again.

25:10

But that editor might not know what it needs to be, right?

25:15

Just they might know some things wrong with it, but they might not know the

25:19

exact solution.

25:20

And just like anybody writing, so you can be a really good writer, but like

25:24

they're going

25:24

to be flaws or imperfections in what you write that you might not catch

25:29

yourself, right?

25:30

So of course people can be good at both, but not everybody is, right?

25:34

So we need good editors to challenge us on our ideas, to challenge us on our

25:40

tone and

25:40

our writing and our flow. And it's just a really hard skill set, I think, to

25:45

hone because I think

25:46

part of it is, I mean, both writing and editing are hard, but I think to some

25:51

degree if you

25:52

write a ton, you'll kind of just naturally get better, but I don't know that

25:57

you can edit

25:58

a ton, right?

26:00

Like what are you going to edit?

26:03

You can't edit.

26:04

I mean, you can try.

26:05

I mean, you can't really edit completed works and have already been published

26:08

because they've

26:09

already been edited. You could try sure, but I don't know what good that's

26:13

going to do,

26:14

especially because if you're just editing, you're not, how are you going to

26:18

know if it's

26:19

good, right?

26:20

So if you're writing and rewriting and you just put it out there and base in

26:24

the response,

26:25

you'll over time come to understand like, oh, I didn't write that very well. Or

26:29

I did

26:30

write this very well, right?

26:32

You can't really test that in the same way for editing.

26:35

I was going to say after, after finally writing a book, which I don't recommend

26:39

to anyone.

26:40

It's a good point because I don't, I don't think I'm a, I mean, I'm an okay

26:44

writer.

26:45

I'm a terrible editor, but I had to write in edit and then the publisher was

26:51

like, all right,

26:52

we're bringing in our own editor.

26:54

And so I was like, what are you going to edit though?

26:56

Everything's already like done.

26:57

What are you going to change?

26:58

And she like came back to me with about like 10 pages of stuff.

27:03

And I was just like, I mean, this is about 90,000 words.

27:05

And I was just like, all right.

27:06

So like, I have to now go and change all of these things.

27:11

And it was just, it was a lot, but it was like stuff that I just, I don't know,

27:14

maybe, again,

27:15

maybe I could sell my strong suit.

27:16

So I wouldn't have picked up on things like this.

27:18

But there was things that wouldn't, I saw it.

27:20

I was like, oh, okay.

27:22

That makes a lot of sense.

27:23

But like, like you said, you need someone that's like, that's like what they do

27:27

and they

27:27

do it well.

27:28

Right.

27:29

And that person might not have ever written a book, right?

27:34

But doesn't mean they're not a good editor.

27:35

They obviously are.

27:37

Do you know, like was it a team that edited your book?

27:40

Was it a person?

27:41

So it was a person that they contract out to to edit it.

27:45

And like, this is her only job.

27:46

Like every book that this company publishes, like she goes and like does all

27:49

the editing

27:50

for it regardless of topic.

27:52

How did you feel about getting the edits?

27:54

Like, how did you feel?

27:56

Like how did you, what did you do next?

27:59

How did you get that feedback?

28:00

Like, how meaning like, what did you do with it?

28:03

Like, what was that next flow of work like for you?

28:06

Yeah.

28:07

I mean, honestly, it was, it was terrible because like I just wanted to be done

28:10

with it.

28:10

Like after doing this for like a year and a half, like I thought I shipped it

28:14

off and I

28:14

was like, all right, cool.

28:16

They'll just go into production.

28:17

It will come out.

28:18

And like now I get all these pages of edits that I have to go back and like

28:22

spend more

28:23

time doing.

28:25

I mean, it was like some of the things were so simple, but I was just like, can

28:28

't you just

28:28

edit it for me and just pop it in and then narrow like you have to go do it.

28:32

And like honestly, there's a lot of things that like I don't think a typical

28:36

reader reading

28:37

it would pick up on, but I understand why they want to do it.

28:42

But I mean, it didn't make me happy having to go back and do that because it

28:47

added hours

28:48

of additional work at night.

28:49

Like I had to go and like spend time going through like page by page, chapter

28:54

by chapter

28:55

and like going through this Google doc and like making sure everything is

28:58

checked off.

28:59

But I mean, I get that's that's her job and like that's what's supposed to do.

29:02

Totally.

29:03

Totally.

29:04

I was just sitting here thinking like I was kind of smiling to myself because I

29:07

was thinking

29:07

it's like, it's like you spent a whole year making a baby and you gave birth to

29:13

that baby

29:13

and they're like, hey, we have feedback on this baby and you're like, I can't

29:16

change it.

29:18

This is what it is.

29:20

You can't give me feedback on this baby.

29:22

Uh, so true.

29:24

So let's talk about you talked a little bit about executives and leadership

29:27

teams.

29:28

So you know, what's the most common misconception from executives about content

29:33

led growth to content

29:34

today?

29:35

I'm sure there's a bunch of them, but if we can hone on like one of them, like

29:39

I think that

29:39

would be fantastic.

29:40

You know, I think a problem that people are still facing in this is having like

29:46

a shared

29:46

understanding or shared agreement as to how content is driving business goals.

29:52

I think in the worst or like the kind of most toxic version of this, a CEO is

29:57

saying, you

29:57

wrote these blog posts.

29:59

Why don't we have more customers now, right?

30:01

Where it's like, well, it doesn't really work like that.

30:04

It doesn't mean like one blog post equals two customers.

30:07

It's not that.

30:08

I think that's kind of one overall problem.

30:11

And what I think I think executive is it's hard to say this because also like I

30:16

can't

30:16

say this is true of every executive, right?

30:19

Sounds like a generalization, but I'm going to try to make this broadly

30:23

applicable.

30:24

But I think there needs to be more understanding that content, right, is both a

30:32

growth and

30:33

brand play, right?

30:34

Like I think we should be figuring out business goals for content.

30:38

Like we should be figuring out ways to make sure the content we're creating is

30:43

working

30:43

towards getting new leads, helping those leads convert, maybe helping existing

30:48

customers

30:49

stay, right?

30:50

Like we should be thinking about these things at the same time, we should not

30:54

be thinking

30:55

like so transactionally about like attribution and measurement, right?

31:01

We can't be thinking about this.

31:02

Like you worked on two blog posts a week, every week for the past six months

31:07

and our customer

31:08

growth only one of this much.

31:10

I think it's the contents fault.

31:11

It's like I think there need to be other ways that more executives need to like

31:19

track success

31:20

earlier on along the way, right?

31:22

Where it's not so much looking back in the past six months, the past year and

31:26

being like what

31:26

happened?

31:27

Why don't we have a better business today?

31:30

Maybe it's identifying the shorter term, sorts of goals that you can feel along

31:35

the way.

31:35

Like I think we're on to something.

31:37

I think it's going well.

31:39

So that if something is not going well, you can change course, right?

31:43

Or like redirect or like revisit that content strategy before you've gone to

31:48

this point

31:48

of like, but there are a hundred content pieces and nothing has happened.

31:52

Like there's a problem here.

31:54

I think we need to executives, you don't need to figure out earlier on in the

31:58

process.

31:59

What are these, you know, these key performance indicators?

32:02

What are these KPIs?

32:03

I love that.

32:06

Mark, you got anything you want to add to that?

32:08

I agree that attribution is just a cluster.

32:14

Fuck.

32:15

I have found to create like a customer journey.

32:18

And so there's software now that's doing this better at scale with AI.

32:22

So you can see out of all of the content and even content like the way you

32:25

define content,

32:26

that needs to be a little bit more clear.

32:28

Because you know, you came up with the terms or kudos to you, zero click

32:32

content.

32:33

That's content.

32:34

How is that influencing and helping a deal close or helping a customer become

32:38

more loyal

32:39

and become a champion?

32:40

Like, how can we take all of the engagements that someone has with content?

32:46

No matter if it's published on your one of your own channels like your website

32:51

or on one

32:51

of the rented channels and understand how that changes someone's mindset or

32:58

behavior

32:59

to then do something that does influence or directly have an impact on revenue.

33:05

So I am bullish that some of the AI stuff can help solve this and it becomes

33:12

less of an

33:12

opinion a little bit.

33:14

And the data just is the data and it can't really, you know, fudge it that much

33:20

But when you look at the hard facts, hopefully with, hey, the data is clean.

33:24

It's clean as it can be.

33:25

This is what it's telling us.

33:27

That's great.

33:28

And it lets, let's use that to create better content or create less content and

33:31

create more

33:31

content.

33:32

And it's holistically looking at all content, not just the things that are the

33:36

conversion

33:37

points behind the landing page.

33:39

That will be a better day for everyone.

33:40

So people first GTM, it's something we talk a lot about Amanda.

33:44

It's the power of using storytelling, relationships of partnerships to match

33:48

how you go to market

33:49

to how people buy.

33:51

What does people first content look like in your mind?

33:59

People first content to me is just content.

34:02

Like isn't your content for people anyway?

34:05

Oh, let's pause there.

34:08

Let's pause there.

34:09

I think a lot of us have been trained to create content for search engines.

34:13

Yeah.

34:14

A lot of us have been trained content.

34:17

Hold on, I got a call, I got a call you out Nick.

34:20

A lot of us have been trained to create content for the LinkedIn Elgo.

34:23

I listen to that shit.

34:25

Yeah, Nick, he's a guy.

34:26

That's me.

34:27

I can name a ton of people, right?

34:29

And like, she's okay, LinkedIn is going to serve it to the right audience.

34:34

I don't know.

34:35

I mean, so yeah, what do you think?

34:36

You're right.

34:37

I think a lot of people have been trained to write content for the algorithms,

34:41

for the machine

34:42

learnings, for those things.

34:44

But those are trying to mimic people.

34:48

Like when you're trying to optimize for search, it's because search is trying

34:53

to optimize

34:53

to serve up, well, theoretically, right?

34:57

Theoretically, they're trying to serve up the most helpful content to people,

35:02

right?

35:03

I think with the rise of dark social, with more and more clicks or more and

35:08

more searches

35:08

ending without a click, it becomes more important than ever to think people

35:13

first, sort of at the

35:15

sacrifice of the algorithm, sort of.

35:17

Right?

35:18

So what I mean by that is, we were talking about this earlier.

35:21

I can't remember if this was before the recording or not, but talking about the

35:24

notion of like,

35:25

when you're replying on LinkedIn, like the algorithm doesn't like it if you don

35:29

't reply.

35:30

What I might challenge is on is, so what?

35:35

Just like, do what you got to do.

35:39

If you can't reply to everything, don't reply to everything because you're only

35:42

human,

35:43

right?

35:44

So no person thinks this person who's post them commenting on, they need to

35:50

read every

35:51

single comment and they need to leave a reply on every single comment.

35:55

No rational human believes that, you know?

35:58

What I'm going to say too is like, is that extra time, energy, worry, is that

36:05

worth the

36:05

incremental lift you might get in the algorithm?

36:11

Like is all of that worth it?

36:15

Or are you better off doing your best within reason and replying to half of

36:18

those comments?

36:21

And I'm going to say that how can we think about that across everything?

36:25

Right?

36:26

You know for your blog posts that you want to get found in search.

36:30

Like, at some point, you might run out of keywords to target on your blog,

36:36

right?

36:36

And be after the year or so of a keyword research focus strategy, you're going

36:41

to kind of run

36:41

out of keywords to go after.

36:44

But you might still have content ideas you want to pursue, right?

36:49

So then maybe you're not optimizing for the high volume keyword.

36:53

Maybe you are just optimizing for that content to get read, baby shared, and

36:59

then later found,

37:01

right?

37:02

So maybe what you want is like, you got the keyword to the degree that's like,

37:05

yeah, I want

37:06

people to search for this keyword and find my blog posts because they're

37:10

looking for my

37:11

blog posts.

37:12

Maybe you have to thought not so much 60,000 people a month or searching the

37:15

terms marketing

37:16

strategy.

37:17

How do I get that term?

37:19

Maybe it's like, I think people, I'm going to create this content marketing

37:23

guide that

37:24

I think is super helpful.

37:26

And I spent a lot of time writing this.

37:28

I think people are going to read this like this and share it once they see it.

37:32

So I'm going to just call my guide the smarter, not harder guy to content

37:36

marketing.

37:37

Tell people about it, share it across all my platforms, all my audiences, and

37:41

hopefully

37:42

they'll find it.

37:43

And now if you search for smarter, not harder content marketing guide, you'll

37:49

find spark

37:50

toros or my blog posts on this, right?

37:53

Sure.

37:54

I could check the keyword volume on that.

37:55

I'm sure it's like one, you know, you know, look, I'm sure it's not high.

38:00

It probably isn't there, but in my mind, it's, I am not trying to rank for

38:05

content marketing

38:06

guide because HubSpot claimed that spot, like what 15 years ago, I'm not going

38:12

to get it.

38:14

And do I think that content marketers that they all would benefit from HubSpot

38:21

's content

38:21

marketing guide today?

38:23

Sorry, but I don't think so.

38:25

I don't think that's going to be the best content, even though it probably

38:28

ranks number

38:29

one.

38:30

Do I think mine is the best?

38:33

No, because the best is also subjective, right?

38:36

Like I believe mine is very helpful.

38:39

I believe it is valuable.

38:41

I believe it is going to be impactful for content marketers of any level, but I

38:47

can never

38:48

know if it's going to be the best.

38:50

One person I'm sure will say it's the best, just like I'm sure 10 other people

38:54

are going

38:55

to say it's fine.

38:56

Right?

38:57

So the best I can do is write content for people, for people who I believe are

39:03

going to read

39:04

it, like it and share it and make sure that it's easily findable for the people

39:10

who know

39:11

that that exists.

39:12

Yeah, well said focus less, a lot less on the channel, maybe 25% on the channel

39:17

, focus

39:18

75% on what's going to make that piece of content get passed around person to

39:23

person.

39:24

Right.

39:25

And things like you could always take a sort of SEO or algorithm informed

39:33

approach to content.

39:36

Right?

39:37

Like right content you think people want to read.

39:39

Of course, right?

39:41

Posture content in such a way that you think it's going to be algorithmically

39:47

rewarded.

39:48

Sure.

39:49

Like of course we should do these things, but I don't think this means, oh, the

39:54

LinkedIn

39:54

algorithm doesn't like when I post polls.

39:59

I don't know.

40:00

I'm making this up.

40:01

This is not true.

40:03

The LinkedIn algorithm doesn't like it when I use polls.

40:05

Therefore, I'm never going to do polls.

40:06

I don't think that's the takeaway, right?

40:08

And the takeaway is going to be like, wow, I really wanted published polls.

40:13

So how can I do this in a way that is going to get amplified and not so much?

40:18

Oh, the algorithm doesn't like it.

40:20

So I'm never going to do it.

40:21

Yeah, it's a hard thing to get your head around because we've been trained by

40:26

these algorithms

40:28

and they're trained to make money for the companies.

40:30

So it is a slippery, slippery slope.

40:34

And it's not easy to just, you know, because you're serving two masters to

40:39

figure out which

40:40

master you're going to serve, but I would encourage everyone listen to what a

40:44

manager

40:44

said and serve more the person versus the alga.

40:49

Nick, do you want to get to the really deep stuff?

40:51

Yeah, yeah, let's dive in.

40:54

So head on over to find this exclusive conversation on Tech Network.

40:59

We're going to be diving into Amanda's proven framework.

41:02

Excited for that.

41:04

And we'll see you on the other side.

41:09

Thanks for joining us on this episode of GTM News Desk, presented by the Tech

41:13

Network.

41:14

To hear our full conversation with our guests today, head to the link in the

41:18

show notes

41:19

to subscribe to the Tech Network.

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Until next time, I'm Mark Killens and I'm Nick Bennett.

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Keep it people first, everybody.